And this was an ACC Policy, not an NCAA Policy which might be expanded now because of these types of incidents.

BTW, Curtis Shaw got rid of a mascot and did not use GM to do so. I did not see that part of the ejection even focused on and I do not recall that it hurt him either.

Peace

Don't know if this is considered in the policy, but the mascot is out there to make a spectacle of himself. He, and others, probably got a kick out of the whole thing. These distinguished alumni in the case at hand, not so much.

For a moment they were "extinguished".

They lost the "distinguished" part when they started acting like buffoons!!!

I wish you were right. :(

We're the video that shows this? I'd like to see it.

It doesn't. It's an assumption on my part. And a good one.

So would that make it an 'informed' opinion or an 'uninformed' opinion?

Any adult who admittedly spends the majority of the game harping on the referees rather than cheering for their team is, by definition, a buffoon.

What's your point?

Informed:

Ya, this makes me laugh. It may as well be Charlie Brown's teacher reading it because no one listens.

I don't mind it being read. Even if just one person at that game listens to it and lets it sink in then it's a positive thing.

Reading Is Fundamental ...
 

We have players read the sportsmanship statement. Home reads the first half. Visitor reads the second half.

What if they defer?

We Don't Need No Stinkin' Sportsmanship Statement ...
 

They don't, but if they did, then a fight would probably break out before the National Anthem. What a way to start the game.

My favorite line is:

"The officials assigned are neutral and are licensed by the WIAA. They are assigned based on their proven ability to officiate games at this level."

At this point, I normally chuckle and tell my partner, "They don't know me very well, do they?"

I feel the same way. If we did not read those lines than when you took action someone would complain they did not know or were not told.

Peace

They're going to complain anyway (this thread is proof). Personally, I'm more inclined to at least think the site admin takes it seriously (not every school here does something like this).

For some reason, I like it when they (game admin) ask, proactively, "Did you have any issues in the first half?" Even better when they ask about a particularly loud section; it tells me they're paying attention even if they're a bit over-zealous. I'll take that over the invisible assistant football coach anyday.

I have never been under the impression that they will not complain or say things. I think what it does is give you something to point to when their behavior goes over the top. It is like not reading the legal writing on a contract, it is not someone else's fault you ignored the fine print. As I said in my area this is usually certain conferences that read a statement and in the playoffs it is apart of the list that must be read as well as other comments about the playoffs or advertising.

Peace

Ok, same adult admitted that "There were seven or eight different calls we were contesting and that no profanity was used." Is 7-8 calls considered the majority of the game?:confused:

The whole 'us' verses 'them' is a ridiculous theme, especially when it's propogated from 'our' side. Leave that to the other side. When we, as officials, jump on this kind of bandwagon, calling people names without any real evidence is silly at best. It just seems that people in our profession would, by default, pass judgement until real evidence, a detailed report, a video, something is produced to vindicate one side or the other and not go by assumption.

7-8 calls is what they admitted to. How does your experience convert that into reality?

I (and others) simply default to the officials until presented with sufficient contrary evidence. A guy with Hess' experience doesn't have rabbit ears, he doesn't toss "distinguished alumni" without good cause, and he doesn't go looking for trouble. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt over the guy who admits to sitting behind the table and loudly complaining about more than half a dozen calls in a single game.

Let's assume 8 calls in a 40 minute game. They're losing their minds every 5 minutes of game time? Once a game is a fan. Two or three, that's an annoyance. 7-8 (or more likely 10-12) is a distraction and a problem.

About the same as somebody admitting to an officer they've had only two beers.

So officials are innocent until proven guilty, while the other side is guilty until proven innocent. I believe that sums up your logic.....

I had an AAU championship game last Sunday. The one team's parents were sitting in a block at one end of the bleachers and were fairly loud and obnoxious, and I personally thought they were clueless to the point they had me and my partners laughing.

They were like that the whole game. Everyone else in the gym knew what they were. Only when I heard profanity over one call did I then go get game management. But that wasn't till the 4th quarter. Up to that point they had probably complained loudly over 10-20 call/no-calls.. Oh the humanity....... :rolleyes:

Oh stop it. The guys admitted to saying things to the officials on several occasions. They are probably never going to admit to saying something over the top or be specific and probably do it so frequently they think it is OK based on their past situations. As stated before, no one in the ACC said Hess or anyone was wrong for ejecting these guys, just that a procedure that we can debate about was not followed. You cannot seriously be an official and be surprised that a fan was ejected for comments that would have been seen as over the top or inappropriate? Then again many of these things people claim here do not surprise me anymore either.

Peace

Is that so surprising? Somebody was wrong. Under the circumstances, an official or a fan did something wrong (possibly both). Giving the benefit of the doubt to the official implies that the fan did something wrong. The logic is sound.

Giving the benefit of the doubt is different from defending someone, come what may. But I don't see that here.

If you're going to make me choose, sure.

And do you honestly think this compares with your AAU game?

IUgrad,

Tread carefully.

Apparently there's a heckler's code now? Not sure what to make of this article.

Chris Corchiani, Tom Gugliotta proved the perils of heckling - Steve Rushin - SI.com

As long as it is not a code of honor.:rolleyes:

And there is NO WAY that said individual might underestimate how severe his behavior was, right? Why do you expect that we should take him at his word?

Besides, I think that this statement by him speaks more to the type of fan he is: "We're not denying we were all over him, but I've been doing that every game I've been at since I retired," said Corchiani, who said he attends just about every NC State game. "That's homecourt advantage."

You know what? Grow up. You're in your 40s now. Quit acting like a petulant child. It was cool for me and my friends to yell at the referees when we were in high school. At some point it becomes no longer cool. You're well past that point. Start acting like an adult. The university holds you up as a "legend". Act like one.

You don't always need video to come to a conclusion — there is tons of other evidence. If your kid tells you something and an adult that you trust tells you a different story who do you believe? Do you need video evidence to come to a reasonable conclusion? Of course not.

Karl Hess didn't get to where he is by having rabbit ears and kicking people out of games willy-nilly. If he stopped the ESPN nationally-televised game to have a fan removed it was for a damn good reason. I don't need to see the video of their behavior to prove it. In fact, the video of them immediately leaving is enough to tell me that they knew they had been caught —*just like the look the dog gives you when you ask him if he ate the steak on the counter. You don't need video to know that he did.

Finally, I think that officials take so much crap from coaches, fans, commentators, etc. that there is a natural tendency to stick together in the one place we can —*with each other. Karl Hess has been unfairly thrown under the bus by the AD, ESPN, sports commentators, etc. I promise you if the two fans that had been kicked out were just your average everyday fans this would have NEVER even been a news story.

I hadn't read your reply before I wrote mine, so I will just say... THIS!!

LOLOL ... Well played.

Do you really think that Hess threw them out just for complaining about calls?

Also, as others pointed out, your experience in an AAU game really has no bearing on this. Apples and oranges really.

I am not Karl Hess, nor will I ever have his resume, but I had a jackwagon removed tonight. I called a travel as the C opposite and some idiot in the stands right behind me unleashed a fury that included an f-bomb. I hit the whistle and got the AD and had the guy removed.

After the game, the guy found his way back into the gym and told me I offended him. Then the AD grabbed him and we closed the locker room door.

Oh, the AD is an official and a friend who occasionally posts here, so maybe he'll come in and poke fun at me (like he just did on Facebook).

Did he Tebow afterwards?

No, but I've decided that on my first of 40 held balls tonight I'm going to call it by getting down on one knee and raising my thumbs to heaven.

"Rich The Terrible"

Now that's a name I could get behind. I'm trying to figure out who our masked AD/official is on here though...

He can't change his screen name again without resetting his post count!

Brad could easily do this -- perhaps even Bob. Matter of fact, my name was already changed once a few years ago.

You mean I can't compare a D1 game with an AAU game??? Bummer. :rolleyes:
How about comparing 2 grown men getting on the officials the whole game with 20 adults getting on the officials the whole game? That seems somewhat fair to me, unless those 2 guys have super-human powers I'm unaware of.

I saw this yesterday in an article from the News & Observer and think it's a fair assessment. Do you?

"If Corchiani or Gugliotta threatened Hess, used profanity or were otherwise offensive, Hess and the ACC should acknowledge those grounds for their ejection. If they were no different from any other fan in the building, Hess and the ACC owe them an apology.

The power to eject unruly fans is not one to be used lightly. Hess has that right, but not without the responsibility to explain himself."

When I read on this board that officials like Hess can do this "because they can", really turns my stomach and think that it's that type of attitude that continues to widen the divide between officials and coaches/fans.

Note to those that may try and paint me as a traitor or someone that has no clue: I do not condone profanity or vulgar assaults or anything else that would deemed a personal attack against any official.

Great! Give me just a few pieces of that evidence. I don't want opinion or conjecture. I asked for some earlier and you came back with an assumption.

If these guys have a history of being warned at games or have been tossed in previous game(s), then I'd like to know that, I really would. I just haven't heard or seen any real evidence yet to support what you guys are selling.... I'm willing to buy, but give me something more than just assumptions. It's what critical thinkers ask for.

From what I remember, any reference to "because he can" was in reference to Hess ejecting the fans himself rather than going to game management. People were asking why he went about administering the ejection like he did rather than doing so properly.

And Hess and the ACC don't owe the two fans any apology if the conference doesn't disagree with the ejection (and from the looks of it, they don't). The only thing the ACC has said that was incorrect about the whole incident is the administration of the ejection.

I've given it time and time again ... you just want to continue to bash the official and make inferences that you are able to handle crowd pressure better in your AAU games.

There is NO WAY that an official of Hess' stature and experience is just throwing fans out for no good reason. THAT'S the evidence. All you need. If you don't get that, I don't know how to explain it to you.

There were over 17,500 people in the arena ... do you think that it was only those 2 that were giving Hess a hard time? If he booted everyone out that was yelling "You suck" he would have probably had to remove half of the crowd!

He booted these two for a reason. Look at where they are seated — right behind the scorer's table. I'm confident they were interfering with the table and being way over the top. Why else would Hess kick them out? I can tell you he wouldn't.

When you are making that much money per game, you don't go in trying to look for things to create controversy. You go in, make the calls, and get out.

There is no way that he is stopping a game of this caliber, on TV, to wait to have these two guys ejected without a damn good reason.

This is really irrelevant. All that matters is what they did/said that game. Perhaps we will never know, but given what everyone else has said, I'm pretty comfortable with how he handled it.

This statement is at the very core of the whole argument in this thread. If you don't accept this as a fact, then you will forever believe that Hess did something wrong or uncalled for.

Anybody who has ever officiated beyond kiddie rec or has ANY knowledge of what it takes to become an official of Hess' stature will likely accept this fact. Those that don't...well...I would tend to lump them into the rabid fan or media talking head school of thought/mentality.

Now Gottfried is getting on on the act....

ACC Now - Gottfried calls ACC reprimand 'weak' at student rally | newsobserver.com blogs

Talk about "weak".....

According to him you cannot eject NC State "greats" or ACC "greats".

Clowns..... Yow, Gottfried, Gugliotta, Corchini......

The comment came from me about "Because he can." I said that because any of us can eject a fan when we feel necessary and just like anything in life people will have something to say about it. Not all of us have the same background or deem the same things as offensive, vulgar or even profane. And someone at his level officiating I am sure is not making a decision without a lot of things in mind that neither you or I would ever know was going through their mind. Hess has been on TV and has been under much more scrutiny than any of us have ever had to deal with. Heck most of us officiate games and never hear a thing about a call we make other than from the coach that did not like the call at the time. How many of us have to hear from our supervisors a day after the game or ask us to file a report after ever game? Probably not many of us have had to do that in our careers at all.

Peace

Is It Worth The Risk ???
 

And risk losing his esteemed Forum member status?

It Was Inevitable, It Finally Happened ...
 

Senior night. Two poor teams. Home team wins in last minute in front of a packed gym. Senior home player "Tebows" in the jump ball circle while teammate is getting ready to shoot a free throw with a few seconds remaining. He had an Irish Cross tattoo (just like mine). I wondered if the display was genuine, or was he just trying to get attention?

I haven't bashed anyone. I just haven't taken sides. And I was only responding to Snaqs, who said basically that anyone complaining for the whole game doesn't deserve to be given any due process. I was only trying to give a couterpoint to that conclusion.

In my last post I had asked you a question and was hoping you'd respond, but looks like you've responded to everything but the question itself.

I'd be careful with the 'NO WAY's..... The minute you stand on that, you'll see a 'YES WAY' coming right at you. Especially when YOU don't have any specifics to the situation, other than "it's Karl Hess". Sorry, he's human too and is just as capable of screwing up as the rest of us.

re: giving Hess the benefit of the doubt - Hess himself has been quoted as saying he's got thick skin, and he's yet to say exactly what Corchiani and Gugliotta said to get through that skin. The FSU AD was right there and has stated that the two former players didn't say anything out of line. Others near the two, including people at the scorers table, have corroborated the FSU AD.

As far as reputation, again, plenty of posters here give Hess the leeway and pile on the two players while admitting that they don't know what was said, but "it must have been something". So, yes, Hess has officiated tons of games. And he recently blew a crucial, obvious goaltending call in the WVU/Syracuse game. So there's a mistake he has made. He's not infallible. Several media sources published Hess' schedule, and the guy has been all over the map, leading many to speculate that he (as well as other refs) are over worked.

Corchiani played 124 college games and was never ejected, and at one point was the all-time NCAA assists leader (he's still second). That sounds like pretty good street cred to me. Corch and Gugliotta were sitting with their families and have said there was no profanity, stated their case, yet Hess has remained curiously silent.

Last but not least, for all you law and order types, Hess has reffed plenty of games in Cameron Indoor within earshot of the famous profanity laced rantings of Coach K and the Crazies, and amazingly, he has tossed no one.

Admit it, Hess had rabbit ears and over-reacted. If he had a real reason, why not clear the air?

What does a player's accomplishments on the court have to do with how they act as fans in the stands? :confused: The two have absolutely no correlation. We aren't going to hear Hess' side of the story because conference policy for the most part forbid this unless given permission.

I'm also not sure how one can have rabbit ears in this situation when the fans are right behind the scorer's table where the official has to be, to communicate with the table. It's not as if he went out of his way to hear them.

Who gives a crap what the FSU AD thought? They are not in a position to know what their actions are over the top or would mostly follow the lead of the official when a fan gets out of line. That just weakens your argument on so many levels. Also, Hess does not owe anyone an explanation but the ACC and his supervisor and his supervisor comes first in that explanation. He does not have to tell the media, or you and me anything.

Are you an official? The reason I ask is because most of us that have been doing this for some time know there are things fans have said that are over the top and got them removed from games. That means we do not need to know what was said to know it is very possible to get ejected for not much being said. Heck I was with an AD of a HS last night and he was telling me things about a game where the officials did not even eject the individual, but the AD pulled the trigger based on this fan's conduct. You act like there are magic words that are said and not an overall behavior that is considered unacceptable. If you were an experienced official that would be obvious to you.

So what??!!!

He also did not play in this era where there are more scrutiny towards behavior for all involved and I bet if he mouthed off to officials back when he played, the officials probably used saltier language to get their point across. Have you ever heard guys in the NBA back then when they were miced up back in the 80s? They would us just as foul language as the players and tell them off in ways we would never think was OK today. Officials back then did not have to T up players back then the same way they are expected now. And if they did, they did not have the same environment.

The Camron Crazies are not sitting behind the scorer's table either. And it is totally different when a bunch of people are yelling together, when a fool sits in a spot where his actions are going to be recognized in a sea of thousands of people. It was also reported that these guys were warned by security independent of this ejection for their behavior. So I guess the security or police were just saying something to him because of Hess? Again you said we do not know what was said, I have not heard you say what he said either. Actually you have no idea and like many guilty people they do not admit to what they actually did. I am sure he said a little more than just telling the official they are having a bad night. Most fans never say anything that tame, they usually accuse officials of everything short of being a child of God.

Admit that you have no idea what that even means. If want to do something that is going to get you noticed, be smart enough to place yourself in a place where no one will know it is you. Obviously the education they give at NC State was not good enough to realize that sitting behind the scorer's table is not a good spot if you want to run your mouth and stay. They should have sat away from the floor and maybe their actions would not have drawn attention. But then again, you know what was said right? Because if he said something racially, sexually or very personal about someone's family I doubt they would be staying very long. Paying your money gives you the right to watch the game, not to say and do what you want. Or can you read the fine print on most tickets at events like this?

Peace

1. You, nor anybody else who wasn't there to witness exactly what happened first hand, have any basis for claiming he had rabbit ears and over-reacted. The vast majority of OFFICIALS here will give him the benefit of the doubt based on the reasons you so eloquently lay out in your post.

2. He, as a professional basketball official, will probably never speak out publicly on the matter. The conference and NCAA probably prefer it that way. We, as OFFICIALS, generally do not talk to the media or anyone else publicly about anything that takes place during a game. It's part of a code of conduct that we (mostly) adopt when we wear the stripes.

3. Why do you feel the need to come on an OFFICIAL'S discussion board to state your case against him? Do you expect any of us to suddenly declare: "Ah, we see the error of our ways. You are right Mr Plywood. Hess was obviously in the wrong here. We will be sure to persecute him at the next secret OFFICIALS meeting". Not gonna happen. Move along. I'm sure there's going to be some controversy in the NCAA tournament that will bring you back here to whine.

Unless I missed something he is probably not an official. Or if he is one, not a very experienced one. And experienced official would know that there are a lot of things if said would get you ejected rather quickly even at that level.

Peace

*checks calendar*

Yup, tis the season.

Right, because generally conferences prohibit officials from talking to or making statements to the media.

What would you expect the AD of the school to say concerning former players of that school attending games at that school?!? Of *course* she is going to defend them. This doesn't show anything at all.

Apples and oranges. No one has said that Hess is infallible. What we have said is that he must have had a good reason to throw them out in order to stop the game and have them removed. You don't do something like that lightly. Especially someone with his experience.

Comparing this to a missed call is simply laughable.

Please excuse my yawning while I listen to the same tired story that the sports media drags out every couple of years.

This means nothing and has no bearing on the situation.

This means even less.

I love this last part the best. You give an example of how Hess routinely handles profanity and tirades from a coach and crazy fans, and then draw the conclusion that he has rabbit ears and over-reacts.

WUT?

The fact that he has been on the receiving end of the "profanity laced rantings" and hasn't tossed other fans out gives Hess MORE credibility in this situation!!

Hess was reprimanded for how he handled the ejection, not the fact that he ejected.

Admit it, You are nothing but a fanboy. (Nevermind, you actually did in one of your first posts)

That's pretty much our point. Unless you think Hess suddenly developed rabbit ears, or maybe he has some sort of grudge against NC State or its veterans from 20 years ago.

Ties for dumbest post ever on the internet. Unless I missed your sarcasm.

One of the first things we learn as officials is that silence cannot be quoted. That said, plywood, I thought I heard Hess's name during the Duke-NC game braodcast tonight. A scathing rebuke, I'd say.

Hess got banished to Western Kentucky for one game after the ejections.


Karl Hess Officiating Schedule - College Basketball Referee

And he worked two ACC games since that incident and before the Duke-NC game. That cannot be right. You mean that after all that bad publicity a guy works games after the incident? Something must be wrong and I think we need an investigation.

Peace

"Banished?" Really? Did you look at the whole schedule? Looks like he had similar matchups throughout the season. #thatgamewasprobablyalreadyonhisschedule:rolleyes:

Different conference. Different coordinator. One has nothing to do with the other.

My understanding in that Hess lost one ACC game for not following the rule regarding fan removal. Not unexpected. Also, you won't see him next week at the ACC Tournament, nor will you see him at NC State next season.

WKU was already on his schedule, which has not been affected outside the ACC. I'm sure he will be working a conference tournament somewhere next week.

When Is Enough Enough ???
 

Karl Hess gives the "heave ho" signal to a fan, probably not his finest hour, and we get two weeks, and 170 posts, out of it. Can't we just leave the poor guy alone. And, "No", he is not my brother-in-law.

Come on ... we can probably keep this thread going at least through the NCAA tourney :)

Here's to hoping he gets some tough calls in the dance.

Woo hoo!!!
 

Karl isn't going to the ACC Tournament...


...BUT I AM!!! :D

He worked Virginia and Maryland this past weekend. So I guess he still works the conference. ;)

Peace

Maybe he will be at the...wait for it...SEC!

ACC Officials Honor Hess

Peace

Awesome

From the "article":

"Solidarity is always appreciated, but refs are supposed to exude a sense of impartiality. Though Lucky, Eades and Clinton weren't working an N.C. State game, they've contributed to a sense that all refs are against State. The action isn't as bad as the implication."

It has nothing to do with NC State and everything to do with supporting Hess but of course let's gin up some more controversy. :rolleyes:

I believe NBA officials have done far more radical stunts in support of their brethren.

I believe they wore shirts inside out one game. I also believe they all wore shirts with #62, in reference to Michael Henderson.

Yeah ... came here to say this...

https://img.skitch.com/20120309-s9pw...4rbcfhkjnt.jpg

Why would Hess decline to work the tournament for one of the elite conferences in the country?

He works other conferences. Because he can.

Peace

Because he could work the Big East tourney instead.

Much better Tournament too.

Peace

Yes ... and to avoid controversy.

Meanwhile, what good examples those two clowns are for their children. Would be neat to see them get tossed from an AAU game.

I'm waiting for it.....:D

It's not as good as the....