New Free Throw Line-Up

[rainmaker]

One comment, one question.

First of all, I like the new line-up. I seem to be the only one, but we've had a week now of using it, and I think it accomplishes the purposes, as I understand them. Defense is getting quite a few more rebounds, and especially the less skilled teams when playing against better teams. Also, the shooter isn't getting jostled around as much. I've done some JV girls, Var girls, and JV boys, and I like it.

Of course, it takes some explaining. Everyone keeps thinking we should be clearing the bottom slots, next to the basket. And I had one coach get sort of snippy about it. But basically, it's been good.

Now the question. If Team B chooses not to occupy one or both of the slots that are now the closest allowed to the shooter, can A take them? I've been holding them empty, thinking I'd heard that somewhere, but I had a couple of doubting looks from dubious players.

[Mark Padgett]

Juulie - the wording of the new rule does not mention any changes in the way the other slots are assigned. Therefore, team A can take them if B doesn't want them, the same way B can take the second ones if A doesn't want them.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Juulie - the wording of the new rule does not mention any changes in the way the other slots are assigned. Therefore, team A can take them if B doesn't want them, the same way B can take the second ones if A doesn't want them.

Yes, Howard just read it, and he called to let me know. I can't seem to get away with anything!!

[Nevadaref]

I haven't seen the exact wording of the new rule. If someone could post this that would be nice.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Juulie - the wording of the new rule does not mention any changes in the way the other slots are assigned. Therefore, team A can take them if B doesn't want them, the same way B can take the second ones if A doesn't want them.

Under the caveat that,when they do line up,the defense is limited to a maximum total of 4 slots(bottom 2 mandatory),and the shooting team is limited to a total of two slots on the lane.Neither team can slip any additional players in,if the other team doesn't bother to fill their allotted spots.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 1st, 2003 at 02:00 AM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
I haven't seen the exact wording of the new rule. If someone could post this that would be nice.

I don't think that you'll see the exact wording until the new rulebooks and casebooks come out,Nevada.All the NFHS has given out so far,that I know of,is the information and explanation on their website.

http://www.nfhs.org/Sports/basketball_comments.htm

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I don't think that you'll see the exact wording until the new rulebooks and casebooks come out,Nevada. All the NFHS has given out so far,that I know of,is the information and explanation on their website.

http://www.nfhs.org/Sports/basketball_comments.htm

If this is true, then Juules may not be incorrect afterall. Padgett's post made it sound like he had seen the new rulebook or at least the wording of the rule, not just the comments. I don't see how he and this guy Howard can tell her that she was wrong when we simply don't know yet whether or not the NFHS is going to incorporate the NCAA women's slot assignment into the new rule. She may turn out to be right. Right now, we have one of those questions whose answer is (D) Not enough information.
We are also running a summer league here, and I would like to use the new FT administration during these games so that the coaches and players know about it and get used to it before the upcoming season. However, not knowing for sure whether or not the spaces are assigned to one team only makes me think that it may not be a good idea to use it in summer play, since it may actually cause more confusion to do it one way now and later find out that the rule is the other way for the regular season.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
[/B]

If this is true, then Juules may not be incorrect afterall. Padgett's post made it sound like he had seen the new rulebook or at least the wording of the rule, not just the comments. I don't see how he and this guy Howard can tell her that she was wrong when we simply don't know yet whether or not the NFHS is going to incorporate the NCAA women's slot assignment into the new rule. She may turn out to be right. Right now, we have one of those questions whose answer is (D) Not enough information.
[/B][/QUOTE]Naw,MP and Howard had it right.If the offense or defense doesn't fill one of their allotted spots,the other team can take it(except for the bottom 2).The only restrictions are the totals of 4 and 2,and nobody in the two top slots.There's more info in the new "points of emphasis' on the FED website.I shoulda put this in before,too.
Mr.Padgett may dick around a lot,but he do knows the rulz.
See "F-3A-Lane Space Requirements" in below:
http://www.nfhs.org/Sports/basketball_emphasis.htm

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 1st, 2003 at 07:06 AM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Under the caveat that,when they do line up,the defense is limited to a maximum total of 4 slots(bottom 2 mandatory),and the shooting team is limited to a total of two slots on the lane.Neither team can slip any additional players in,if the other team doesn't bother to fill their allotted spots.

What Howard said, I think, is that if B didn't want that upper space, anyone could have it. By upper space, I mean the second one down from the shooter, the third one up from the basket. The description on the website looks as though A3 could slide up from the middle space, but A4 can't step in. Wording is "Reduced the number of players permitted on marked lane spaces during free throws (not including the free-thrower) to four defensive and two offensive players, with the lane spaces closest to the free-throw line (and the shooter) remaining vacant."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker

[/B]

What Howard said, I think, is that if B didn't want that upper space, anyone could have it. By upper space, I mean the second one down from the shooter, the third one up from the basket. [/B][/QUOTE]If Howard meant that any one of the two A players allowed on the lane lines can slide into that space,if B doesn't want to fill it,then Howard is right.Team A still can't put any more players anywhere along the lane lines than the maximum of 2 that they are legally allowed to have there.Less than 2,but not more.

That's the way I understand that the new rule is supposed to be administered.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

What Howard said, I think, is that if B didn't want that upper space, anyone could have it. By upper space, I mean the second one down from the shooter, the third one up from the basket. [/B]

If Howard meant that any one of the two A players allowed on the lane lines can slide into that space,if B doesn't want to fill it,then Howard is right.Team A still can't put any more players anywhere along the lane lines than the maximum of 2 that they are legally allowed to have there.Less than 2,but not more.

That's the way I understand that the new rule is supposed to be administered. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm not sure, now that we're being so specific, that Howard was saying that. But not to fear. He'll read this and call me. When he does, I'll report back. Howard is the go-to guy for rules and interpretations, so he gets the last word.

[scottk_61]

Originally posted by rainmaker


Now the question. If Team B chooses not to occupy one or both of the slots that are now the closest allowed to the shooter, can A take them? I've been holding them empty, thinking I'd heard that somewhere, but I had a couple of doubting looks from dubious players.

My conversations with a member of the rules committee left me in doubt also.
Last year my state was an experimental state and we were told to allow the the teams to occupy the empty slots as long as the numerical lineup was followed (4 defensive and 2 offensive) and not exceeeded.
However, this year I have been told the slots are locked and it is allowed??????????
I am waiting for the books and an official ruling from our state in the meantime, I am allowing the movement to empty slots as long as we have the proscribed number of defensive v offensive players set.

Clear as mud, wouldn't you say?

[Mark Padgett]

Here is the wording directly from the press release on the NF website:

"Beginning with the 2003-04 season, the number of players permitted on marked lane spaces during free throws (not including the free-throw shooter) will be six – four defensive players and two offensive players. The lane spaces closest to the free-throw line (and the shooter) must remain vacant.

The first marked lane spaces (ones adjacent to the end line) shall be occupied by opponents of the free-throw shooter, unless the resuming-of-play procedure is in effect. The second marked lane spaces on each side may be occupied by teammates of the free-throw shooter, and the third marked lane spaces may be occupied by opponents of the free-throw shooter."

Notice the diffenence between the use of the words "shall" and "may". This supports what we have been saying, unless you interpret that language (combined with the statement that there will be four defensive and two offensive players "permitted") as meaning that if a player entitled to a space doesn't take it, it must remain vacant. The word "may" indicates the taking of a space is not required for those spaces, unlike in the NBA.

BTW - "Howard" is Howard Mayo, commissioner of Portland Basketball Officials Assn. (PBOA) and a former member of the NF rules committee.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

Notice the diffenence between the use of the words "shall" and "may". This supports what we have been saying, unless you interpret that language (combined with the statement that there will be four defensive and two offensive players "permitted") as meaning that if a player entitled to a space doesn't take it, it must remain vacant. The word "may" indicates the taking of a space is not required for those spaces, unlike in the NBA.

Following is the direct quote from the new POE's on the NFHS website(I gave the link before):-from "F-3A":

"If the offense desires the second spaces,they may have them.If the defense desires the third spaces,they may have them.If a player entitled to the second or third space does not occupy that space,AN OPPONENT MAY BE WITHIN THE SPACE(within the number limitations,four defense and two offense).The fourth lane spaces(nearest the free throw shooter)may not be occupied."

Pretty straightforward,I think.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
"If the offense desires the second spaces,they may have them.If the defense desires the third spaces,they may have them.If a player entitled to the second or third space does not occupy that space,AN OPPONENT MAY BE WITHIN THE SPACE(within the number limitations,four defense and two offense).The fourth lane spaces(nearest the free throw shooter)may not be occupied."

Pretty straightforward,I think.

I agree -- the shooter's team may only have two players on the lane. If there are only three defenders on the lane, shooter's team doesn't get to add a third.

I still haven't heard from Howard.