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Old Wed Jan 18, 2012, 01:23pm
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Ref the defense - then what?

Had a situation during a private school VB contest last night, two-man crew. A1 is driving on a fast break, B2 is ahead of A1 and turns to try and establish LGP. My focus shifts to him because I want to know when/if he establishes.

A1 jumps for a try just below the free throw line extended and plows into B2. Because I was concentrating on B2 I knew he hadn't established LGP before A1 got airborne on the try so I called a block.

Here's the question - A1's take off was high in the key. B2 attempted to establish LGP low in the post. There's quite a bit of distance between them so, if I'm refereeing the defense, what can/should you do to be certain of what A1 did, and when, in terms of beginning the habitual shooting motion? I knew/saw in this case that A1 was airborne before B2 got established, but in thinking about it afterward I realized it was more happenstance than conscious thought/awareness and that kind of bugged me.

On a related note I'm starting to understand/appreciate the no-charge arcs in the NBA/NCAA.
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2012, 01:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
Had a situation during a private school VB contest last night, two-man crew. A1 is driving on a fast break, B2 is ahead of A1 and turns to try and establish LGP. My focus shifts to him because I want to know when/if he establishes.

A1 jumps for a try just below the free throw line extended and plows into B2. Because I was concentrating on B2 I knew he hadn't established LGP before A1 got airborne on the try so I called a block.

Here's the question - A1's take off was high in the key. B2 attempted to establish LGP low in the post. There's quite a bit of distance between them so, if I'm refereeing the defense, what can/should you do to be certain of what A1 did, and when, in terms of beginning the habitual shooting motion? I knew/saw in this case that A1 was airborne before B2 got established, but in thinking about it afterward I realized it was more happenstance than conscious thought/awareness and that kind of bugged me.

On a related note I'm starting to understand/appreciate the no-charge arcs in the NBA/NCAA.
The habitual shooting motion is not the same as becoming airborne. So if your only judgement is what came first: establishing LGP and becoming airborne, if stationary, try to position yourself so that your neck doesn't need to twist too much when looking at both, and if transition, observe the airborne status peripherally while concentrating on the defender.
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2012, 01:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
Had a situation during a private school VB contest last night, two-man crew. A1 is driving on a fast break, B2 is ahead of A1 and turns to try and establish LGP. My focus shifts to him because I want to know when/if he establishes.

A1 jumps for a try just below the free throw line extended and plows into B2. Because I was concentrating on B2 I knew he hadn't established LGP before A1 got airborne on the try so I called a block.

Here's the question - A1's take off was high in the key. B2 attempted to establish LGP low in the post. There's quite a bit of distance between them so, if I'm refereeing the defense, what can/should you do to be certain of what A1 did, and when, in terms of beginning the habitual shooting motion? I knew/saw in this case that A1 was airborne before B2 got established, but in thinking about it afterward I realized it was more happenstance than conscious thought/awareness and that kind of bugged me.

On a related note I'm starting to understand/appreciate the no-charge arcs in the NBA/NCAA.

1) If A1 is in the air then, unless he passes off, you can consider him having his started his Act of Shooting.

2) I won't comment on the NBA/WNBA arc but with regards to the NCAA arc, it is bunch of hooey adopted by a group of people who are ingnorant of why the guarding rules were written in the 1950's and those reasons still apply to basketball the way it is played today.

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Old Wed Jan 18, 2012, 01:34pm
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Unfortunately, I was taught to "referee the defense" when first starting out. As you stated in your example, we have to referee the entire play.
See when the defense obtains LGP while picking up the offense players gather, steps, etc.
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2012, 01:34pm
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Referee the defense does not mean we never watch the offense. In your play if you never watched the defense you probably would have missed or guessed the call on the offense. What that phrase mean is focus more on the defense so you can know what contact is illegal. Since the defender is the judge of that ultimately, watch them more closely. The offense is going to usually move based on what the defense is doing. So if a defensive player is in front of an offensive player, they will have to do something to get around them or there will be a foul.

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Old Wed Jan 18, 2012, 01:38pm
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Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
On a related note I'm starting to understand/appreciate the no-charge arcs in the NBA/NCAA.
I too, up until a few weeks ago, also appreciated the RA. However, RichMSN indicated that there is a whole lot more to it than what you think.
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2012, 01:39pm
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Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
1) If A1 is in the air then, unless he passes off, you can consider him having his started his Act of Shooting.

2) I won't comment on the NBA/WNBA arc but with regards to the NCAA arc, it is bunch of hooey adopted by a group of people who are ingnorant of why the guarding rules were written in the 1950's and those reasons still apply to basketball the way it is played today.

MTD, Sr.
1. The act of shooting begins prior to A1 being in the air... give the kids FTs.

2. So you're saying the speed, skill, athleticism & the way game is played today still relates to the 50s??
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2012, 01:53pm
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Originally Posted by tref View Post
1. The act of shooting begins prior to A1 being in the air... give the kids FTs.

2. So you're saying the speed, skill, athleticism & the way game is played today still relates to the 50s??
No, he says the thought process behind the rules still applies.
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2012, 02:07pm
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Originally Posted by tref View Post
Unfortunately, I was taught to "referee the defense" when first starting out. As you stated in your example, we have to referee the entire play.
See when the defense obtains LGP while picking up the offense players gather, steps, etc.
The term "referee the defense" does not mean only watch the defense. It really means is focus more on the defender than just watch the ball like most officials do when they get started or do not have a lot of experience. Just like ball watching is discouraged but that does not mean you should not be aware of where the ball is, but younger officials focus on watching the ball and doing nothing else.

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Old Wed Jan 18, 2012, 02:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
Had a situation during a private school VB contest last night, two-man crew. A1 is driving on a fast break, B2 is ahead of A1 and turns to try and establish LGP. My focus shifts to him because I want to know when/if he establishes.

A1 jumps for a try just below the free throw line extended and plows into B2. Because I was concentrating on B2 I knew he hadn't established LGP before A1 got airborne on the try so I called a block.

Here's the question - A1's take off was high in the key. B2 attempted to establish LGP low in the post. There's quite a bit of distance between them so, if I'm refereeing the defense, what can/should you do to be certain of what A1 did, and when, in terms of beginning the habitual shooting motion? I knew/saw in this case that A1 was airborne before B2 got established, but in thinking about it afterward I realized it was more happenstance than conscious thought/awareness and that kind of bugged me.

On a related note I'm starting to understand/appreciate the no-charge arcs in the NBA/NCAA.
With a two man crew I would try and get a wider angle on this play. You can still referee the defensive but you'd probably have a better look on the offensive player, even if its in the corner of your eye. If you're too tight to the play, you won't be able to see anything.
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2012, 03:23pm
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The more players you can see, the better you'll referee.
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2012, 03:29pm
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Does this thread not suggest that "referee the defense" is nothing more than a catch phase, which, like many things, when applied literally can, it itself, cause problems?
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2012, 04:19pm
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Does this thread not suggest that "referee the defense" is nothing more than a catch phase, which, like many things, when applied literally can, it itself, cause problems?
Maybe, and thanks for the replies. I can see now my thinking about this was too narrowly focused (or rather, being satisfied that I was able to transition to focusing mostly on the defense when appropriate). Of course we don't focus exclusively on the defense, but based on the responses it's clear I need to get wider and/or in better position to take in the whole play.

It's interesting, though, how the evolution of officiating goes from ball-watching (beginning), to refereeing the defense (mid-level?), to more situational awareness (higher level?). We talk a lot about seeing the entire play and I'm thinking that the words are important but, without the context of having experienced the deficiencies of each level (as well as being aware of the deficiencies experienced), it's difficult to do.
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2012, 04:25pm
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Does this thread not suggest that "referee the defense" is nothing more than a catch phase, which, like many things, when applied literally can, it itself, cause problems?
I do not think it is a catch phrase when officials usually come into the game wanting to follow the ball as they are trained to do when watching games as a fan or even as a player. When I watch newer officials they almost always watch the ball and the phrase is there to get them to expand their view. This phrase is no different than other phrases that people use and misunderstand or take it too far or do not understand in the first place. All it really means is do not watch the ball or become a ball watcher. But even to know what to call you have to at some point watch the ball.

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Old Wed Jan 18, 2012, 04:31pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
All it really means is do not watch the ball or become a ball watcher. But even to know what to call you have to at some point watch the ball.

Maybe the catch phrase wasn't so bad after all.
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