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-   -   Player Raising His/Her Hand When They Commit a Foul (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/85643-player-raising-his-her-hand-when-they-commit-foul.html)

KCRC Thu Jan 12, 2012 09:46pm

You sure?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 812673)
No it wasn't. It was a phantom rule, only enforced by relic officials who never bothered to read about rule changes.

If that's true, then every single official that did our JV games that year was a relic official. In fact, the requirement to raise a hand was brought up in every captain's meeting that year. Maybe it was just a conference or area thing.

JRutledge Thu Jan 12, 2012 09:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 812601)
It was a dumb practice, IMO. As was the bird-dog.
Some things change for good reasons.

Well in most mechanics that are written, bird dogging has not gone away. And it still has its place if you ask me.

Peace

just another ref Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 812902)
Well in most mechanics that are written, bird dogging has not gone away. And it still has its place if you ask me.

Peace

I like it, in certain situations. Two guys giving the open palm "WHO? ME??" What better way to inform one than to point him out.

Adam Fri Jan 13, 2012 09:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCRC (Post 812901)
If that's true, then every single official that did our JV games that year was a relic official. In fact, the requirement to raise a hand was brought up in every captain's meeting that year. Maybe it was just a conference or area thing.

Your team had a T in every game?

I played high school ball (in Iowa) up until the 91-92 season; it was not a requirement then. I first started officiating in the 93-94 season, and while I was by no means an expert (I convinced a partner that the coach could choose any player to shoot FTs when his shooter was injured), I'm pretty sure this wasn't in there.

In my playing days, I recall hearing that the rule was no longer in effect but some officials still enforced it (for whatever reason).

letemplay Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:15am

If you think that was a long time ago...
 
...does anyone remember the table crew having five numbered (1-5) ping pong type paddles? Bookkeeper/clock operator would hold up the respective numbered paddle to indicate # of fouls on that particular player after official reported.

bob jenkins Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 813038)
...does anyone remember the table crew having five numbered (1-5) ping pong type paddles? Bookkeeper/clock operator would hold up the respective numbered paddle to indicate # of fouls on that particular player after official reported.

Was that ever a requirement, or just something some tables did? I've also seen tables with light standards, and they'd light up the appropriate number.

Rich Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 812902)
Well in most mechanics that are written, bird dogging has not gone away. And it still has its place if you ask me.

Peace

I may do it once or twice a game.

What I'm talking about (being ridiculous) is the requirement to thrust the fist straight up in the air (as if startled) and then make an exaggerated palm-down birddog at the fouler's waist. On EVERY foul.

JRutledge Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 813043)
I may do it once or twice a game.

What I'm talking about (being ridiculous) is the requirement to thrust the fist straight up in the air (as if startled) and then make an exaggerated palm-down birddog at the fouler's waist. On EVERY foul.

I totally agree with you about doing it on every foul. That was silly when a play is on the perimeter and everyone knew who the foul was on. I was more referring to the play near the basket where there is a possible crash, but the player from behind pulls his arm and clearly fouls from your angle, and the player that crashed into the shooter thinks it was him. And I do use it sparingly. Not sure I use it every game, but I do use it.

Peace

Rich Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 813060)
I totally agree with you about doing it on every foul. That was silly when a play is on the perimeter and everyone knew who the foul was on. I was more referring to the play near the basket where there is a possible crash, but the player from behind pulls his arm and clearly fouls from your angle, and the player that crashed into the shooter thinks it was him. And I do use it sparingly. Not sure I use it every game, but I do use it.

Peace

Here's a good video:

Bird dog, belted pants, Byron collars, chair thrown across the court.... :D

Bobby Knight throws a chair (High Quality) - YouTube

Welpe Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 813064)
Here's a good video:

Bird dog, belted pants, Byron collars, chair thrown across the court.... :D

Bobby Knight throws a chair (High Quality) - YouTube

Football isn't the only sport where the officiating has changed a lot over the years.

Hey where'd the three point line go? :p

BillyMac Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:24am

Who Let The Birddogs Out ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 813043)
The requirement to thrust the fist straight up in the air and then make an exaggerated palm-down birddog at the fouler's waist. On every foul.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 813060)
I totally agree with you about doing it on every foul.

From the IAABO mechanics manual (page 52, A, 4) When clarification is necessary, extend the other arm, with palm down, toward the fouler's midsection.

I don't have access to a NFHS manual.

Freddy Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:31am

Similis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 813273)
From the IAABO mechanics manual (page 52, A, 4) When clarification is necessary, extend the other arm, with palm down, toward the fouler's midsection. I don't have access to a NFHS manual.

NFHS 2.4.2.B.1. - "When clarification is needed, delay and extend the other hand, palm down toward the fouling player's hips (bird-dog signal)." And the faceless Mr. Pictograph guy at the back of the books shows illustration #5, the pic with the "stop clock for foul", with the parenthetical phrase "optional bird dog".
Don't see it much here, only when clarification is indeed necessary.

26 Year Gap Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 812477)
There's two things that go when you get old: memory, . . . and I can't remember what the other thing is. :confused: Anyway . . .

Hand up after official's birddog that a foul was committed was still a rule back when I started back in '76, back in the college days. The only trouble we had then was when players would put a hand up and then swipe it down in an unsportsmanlike fashion. Usually good for at least one T late in each game. Not sure if it was a state thing or Fed thing back then. Must've changed sometime after that because it wasn't by rule a requirement later when I then resumed activity in the coaching ranks. Of course, those old days still had real jump balls -- oops, sorry, I know that's a sensitive subject with some. :)

As a junior in HS, during the 73-74 season, we had to raise our hands. As a senior, it became optional. The rationale for the change was twofold--the sportsmanship issue as mentioned above, and the fed did not want players to "feel guilty" by having to raise hands after committing a foul. I did not read the whole thread, so MTD may have already been to his attic. :D

CMHCoachNRef Sun Jan 15, 2012 09:00am

The NBA rule changed in 1975. Up until that time, the players had to raise their hands. I believe that the rule changed while I was in HS (mid 1970s).

My most vivid memory of the rule was during a junior game in which I participated as a player. We were playing a team for the fifth time during the same season -- we met them several times in tournaments. We had lost the previous four meetings. We got ahead of them during the first half. A couple of their players were known hot heads. They ended up having numerous technical fouls assessed against them for raising both hands in the air and slamming them down. They had five or so T's called on them. Of course, the technical fouls did NOT count as team fouls. As I recall, we only got one free throw for each technical foul. We did win the game.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCRC (Post 812616)
I can guarantee that failing to raise your hand on a PF was a technical in the 1993-1994 season in IA. One of my best friends got Td up in a JV game for that offense. He thought the foul was on someone else and was listening to our coach give instructions and not paying attention to the official asking him twice to raise his hand. No third request came...whack!


If Iowa was using NFHS Rules back then, then your friend should not have received a TF because the "raise the hand" requirement had been removed many years before that.

MTD, Sr.


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