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-   -   "That's a foul!" (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/85641-thats-foul.html)

Camron Rust Thu Jan 12, 2012 05:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 812832)
Beautifully stated, Cam. Very eloquent, indeed.

Still, I respectfully disagree. Just because a kid is frustrated is not a reason for him to be disrespectful. Instead, we need to learn to deal with our frustrating situations. If you don't handle them well, life can take you over easily.

Besides, I'm objectively taking the statement at face value. If the kid does not address an authority figure properly, be it a parent, teacher, or any other adult in charge, there are consequences. It's all rather simple. And once again, Juggling had to T up that same kid who wasn't handling the situation well. It was almost inevitable that a T was forthcoming.
The point is that his statement was NOT disrespectful at all. You're reading the wrong meaning into it. It is a request, not a demand.

The fact that the kid ultimately earned a T for another action doesn't change the meaning of his earlier statement.

Camron Rust Thu Jan 12, 2012 05:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7IronRef (Post 812815)
It is relevant and to dismiss it as having no relevance is narrowminded. Former players are getting opportunities to move up faster in part because of their understanding of the game.

Are there good officials who never played the game? I am sure there are, but former players understand the game better.
I bet I could find more former players than not who really don't understand the game as well as the average HS Varsity official.

Adam Thu Jan 12, 2012 05:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 812832)
Beautifully stated, Cam. Very eloquent, indeed.

Still, I respectfully disagree. Just because a kid is frustrated is not a reason for him to be disrespectful. Instead, we need to learn to deal with our frustrating situations. If you don't handle them well, life can take you over easily.
My final take on this infernal topic:

Yes, the statement is "imperative." No, it's not an order/command. Not every imperative statement is an order. An order/command requires intent and presumed authority; neither are present in the comment in question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 812832)
Besides, I'm objectively taking the statement at face value. If the kid does not address an authority figure properly, be it a parent, teacher, or any other adult in charge, there are consequences. It's all rather simple. And once again, Juggling had to T up that same kid who wasn't handling the situation well. It was almost inevitable that a T was forthcoming.
Not at all, I'm not sure where you're getting this. The one and only time I've used a stop-sign with a coach, he ran right through it and got a T. Does that mean the stop sign is an inneffective (or counter-productive) tool? Not at all. It just means that coach didn't get it.

Rich Thu Jan 12, 2012 05:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7IronRef (Post 812815)
It is relevant and to dismiss it as having no relevance is narrowminded. Former players are getting opportunities to move up faster in part because of their understanding of the game.

Are there good officials who never played the game? I am sure there are, but former players understand the game better.
That's complete nonsense. Former players around here are some of the biggest and worst ball watchers I've ever seen.

(And many of them are getting opportunities because they played for people who are helping them get those opportunities, too.)

Rich Thu Jan 12, 2012 05:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7IronRef (Post 812846)
Not sure what your point is, but I have been to plenty of camps where some of the clinicians are former players. They will tell you that an assignor saw them play and the assignor has said when your playing days are over, call me and we will turn you into a referee. I have been in discussions with D1, D2, D3 assignors and they have said that former players understand the game and that those officials can be taught the other things they need to know.

Now that is not saying guys are just jumping right into a 50 game D1 schedule, just that they are getting more opportunties and they advance faster than someone who did not play.

Then it is up to them to work on the rest of their game.
It has nothing to do with the qualities they have as players. It has to do with having the right contacts.

All of us played at some level. Some former players are outstanding officials and some former players are terrible officials. Just like the people who didn't "play."

bainsey Thu Jan 12, 2012 06:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 812850)
The fact that the kid ultimately earned a T for another action doesn't change he meaning of his earlier statement.
Change? Of course not. The impasse here is that I do indeed find it to be disrespectful, and not surprisingly, disrespectful actions continued to the point where Juggling T'd up the kid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
An order/command requires intent and presumed authority; neither are present in the comment in question.
Intent? Probably not. Authority? Definitely. Are we not authority figures on the court? Besides, I'm not sure where you're getting your definition for "order," but it seems to be the crux of our division here.

Regarding your stop-sign point, I also never said such things were ineffective. Quite the contrary. I've used them a few times, and they've always worked (so far).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
I've had the privilege over the last few years to work with some officials who have had some very successful careers. One common thread from all their pre-games is that we all have our own thresholds and we have to handle business how we see fit.
There it is. I think you provided some well-needed common ground, BNR. In fact, I think I'll steal that line for my own pre-games.

bob jenkins Thu Jan 12, 2012 06:06pm
I don't know where it's written, or taught (other than Maine, apparently) that an imperative statement is a T.

I prefer Personal, Profane or Persistent. The Personal needle moves a little on this, the other two stay pegged at zero.

bainsey Thu Jan 12, 2012 06:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 812873)
I don't know where it's written, or taught (other than Maine, apparently) that an imperative statement is a T.
No-one taught me this. Like Juggling's area, such actions aren't all that common here, so that's where I draw the line. Besides, I don't talk to authority figures that way, either. It's my threshold. I don't think I could define it any more simpler.

Camron Rust Thu Jan 12, 2012 06:48pm
Whatever threshold you choose to apply, being similar to the rest of the pack will usually work better for you than having a threshold different than the majority.

We have a few people around here who's T threshold is pretty low and it doesn't help them one bit with either coaches OR other officials. They just get labeled as overly officious, rabbit-eared, thin skinned, officials.

bob jenkins Thu Jan 12, 2012 06:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 812882)
Whatever threshold you choose to apply, being similar to the rest of the pack will usually work better for you than having a threshold different than the majority.

We have a few people around here who's T threshold is pretty low and it doesn't help them one bit with either coaches OR other officials. They just get labeled as overly officious, rabbit-eared, thin skinned, officials.
+1

And, the opposite (those who never T) have similar issues and equivalent monikers.

BillyMac Thu Jan 12, 2012 07:54pm
Kalos ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 812885)
And, the opposite (those who never T) have similar issues and equivalent monikers.
"Every ethical virtue or positive character trait can be described as a pleasant intermediate activity, between a painful excess and a painful deficiency." (Aristotle)

JRutledge Thu Jan 12, 2012 08:26pm
Hey Fullor30!!!

Kind of glad we were away today? :D

Peace


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