"That's a foul!"
 

WHACK.

That quote came from the same kid, while on the bench, who only slightly earlier said, "They're beating us by 50 ref. C'mon and lighten up on the calls a bit".

The other team had their 8th-12th players in and were playing nearly equal to this kid's team.

As soon as I reported the T, the coach went over and had a talk with him.

55 seconds later, the game ended.

Not much of an interesting story, but in my woods, a player talking back to an official is rare - I get maaaaybe 2 T'able situations a year with lip from a player.

Easy whack right there.

Similar situation last year. Junior high boys. Home is losing big, to a vastly bigger better team. Some of the dads in the top row started it. Lane! He's in the lane! He's living in the lane!!

1,2,3!!

This went on for a while, then I realized there was another voice. A kid on the bench had joined in the chant. I waited briefly until I was certain of the offender then stopped right in front of the bench and whacked him. I thought the kid was going to cry. Coach looked annoyed, not sure if it was with the kid or the call, but he said nothing.

I do not see anything that on its face would be a T from me. I probably would have told the kid to "You need to play basketball and not worry about us" and then moved on. But that is me. Then again that would be tame based on what I experience in my games.

Peace

Really? At most, I'd chuckle internally on that one. I don't see anything about what he said that was unsportsmanlike.

Not in my book. Not even close, actually.

This quote came with 2:00 left in the 4th. I think he wanted the game over with, and wanted less whistles to end the game quicker. Had the winning team played their non-starters for the majority of the game, it would have been a decent game.

Thin Epidermis ????
 

I originally thought the same thing, but re-read JugglingReferee's post. "That's a foul!" is what got the kid whacked. If he said it loud enough, and with a certain tone, that might have gotten him whacked in my game too.

I'm Late, I'm Late, For A Very Important Date ...
 

Hot date after the game?

Seriously? I can't think of a single circumstance where I'd allow a player to give an official an order.

imo, you need to better discern what's a general complaint (that needs to be adressed) and what's an "order."

The OP reads to me like the former -- and it wouldn't get a T.

Thanks for your concern, Bob, but I think I can discern an imperative sentence from a declarative one. That's not very difficult. Actually, it's quite black-and-white there.

I'm sure you can. It's also not what I said.

You're welcome.

Doesn't even register on the radar for me.

Very well, then. Am I to understand that you believe you have to "feel" what's an order and what isn't?

Good grief...it's not an order. It's a 17 year old kid whining because his team is getting their butts kicked. Tell him to knock it off and move on.

Would love to hear the conversation with the Coach...

Coach: "What did he say?"

Official: "He told me to lighten up on the calls a little bit."

Coach: "You whacked him for THAT?"

Official: "Absolutely Coach. He can't order me around like that."

Hmmm...that's not going to end well at all.:eek:

C'mon - really? You're sounding OOO...

:eek:

Wow, did you read the sentence?

Yep...did you read it with the understanding that it's from a HS kid who is getting thumped in a game? He's whining...get over it.

It wouldn't get more than a little chuckle from me. And I'm certainly not shy about serving tea when necessary.

At most, it's a request.

I wouldn't T up the kid till after I'd told the coach to control his bench. That calls the coach's attention to the misbehavior and affords him the opportunity to deal with it.

Doesn't work in every case: sometimes they're so far over the line you have to address it immediately. But in this case, if it's becoming a problem, that's how I would start.

"C'mon ref, lighten up a little." I'd have to hear how it was said, but that doesn't sound like a problem. Could quite possibly even be said in a friendly manner.
But a kid repeatedly yelling for any call from the bench is not acceptable, in my opinion. If he sees something and spontaneously yells it (e.g. That's a foul!) I can live with that. The kid in my situation was repeatedly yelling for the 3 second call, and laughing about it. Coach had opportunity to stop it. He didn't, so I did.

And that's relevant, how?

It's more than fine to be compassionate, but that doesn't allow players to break the rules in the process. Perhaps this is acceptable behavior in your corner of Rome, but here, authority is expected to be respected.

I'd chuckle, too, quite frankly. That still doesn't make it legal.

We don't use a technical foul because we're offended. (I might never use them otherwise.) We use them because to keep behavior in check, whether that behavior bugs us or not.

And you honestly believe that that comment is behavior that needs to be kept in check??

Like someone else already said - OOO.

I'm reminded of the phrase that begins with "When your only tool is a hammer...."

..."everything looks like a nail?"

Rock,

Your argument is based significantly more on emotion than it is on facts. If you can't have this discussion logically, I don't see the point of it continuing.

You know as well as anyone that communication is more than words. Context matters. Tone matters. Experience helps us determine those things.

Calling this comment an "order" simplisticly dismisses the other 90% of communication.

Doesn't the fact that the vast majority of those responding to this see it the same way as Rockyroad does say anything at all to you? You're sounding very "fiasco-ish". And I mean inexperienced...

And I have no idea what you are talking about. What emotion?

You said you would call a T on a kid for a comment that several others have said would not even register with them. I disagreed with giving a T. So that makes this an emotional discussion?

Guess I understand now why you would T that kid.

Not just vast majority....unless I've missed someone, it was unanimous among those responding.

There we go. That's lucid.

Context and tone indeed matter. If this sentence came from a coach that I knew well, and it came from a humouous angle, there's no way in hell I'm penalizing that. From a kid I don't know, though? (And I don't know any of them.) I don't see how any context would make this permissible for a kid to talk to an official that way.

Bear in mind, too, that Juggling passed on penalizing this sentence. Often times, passing comes off as condoning, so what happened a bit later? The kid mouthed off again. This is why you have to nip those imperative sentences in the bud.

FWIW, "That's a foul!" very seldom gets a second thought from me. It's a declarative sentence, so it's a statement of opinion (or perceived fact?) that's not directed at anyone. I could see it as the last straw of an ABS T, but that's about it.

That's what I thought - was just covering my butt in case there was one rogue "believer"... :)

1) there's a whole range of responses between ignoring and T-ing.

2) I, for one, read the statement as along the lines of "(I wish the ref would) lighten up on the calls a bit" or "(Would you please) lighten up on the calls a bit?"

Perhaps you guys should lighten up on Bainsey.

Or "We're getting killed by 50 points and you're calling a foul on every possession - I have a test in 5 hours now that it's 2:00am due to your over-officiating this game. Can you please give us a break? I want to go home and forget this debacle of a game."

:D

Which is why I said - way back in post #15 - to tell the kid to knock it off and move on. Going straight to a T and then justifying it by saying the kid was giving me an order and I need to make him respect my authority is simply ridiculous.

1. Fully agree.

2. I think herein lies our divide. I can only read/hear what's in front on me. What you inserted parenthetically makes a vast difference, and I sure wouldn't penalize that.

Oh Contrare, it ends well for bainsey's fellow officials :D

You're the only one reading this as some sort of order. Feel free to do as you wish in your games, but I can guarantee you if that was my justification for going straight to a T, I'd be on a strict diet of YMCA games for two years.

Me, if it comes from the bench, the coach gets a quick word about keeping a reign on his bench. If it's from a player on the court, a quick word will do.

You have to do what's right, Snaqs, not what's popular. We're officials, not fans.

And again, Juggling passed on this, too. That very kid didn't shut up until Juggling issued the T.

This is BS. You clearly are the only one in this thread who thinks your take on this scenario is "right". Not everything is black and white - certainly not on subjective interpretations of something someone said. It's not often when everyone disagrees with one person's take...

You're right. Do what's right. But if you're swimming against the stream, it might not be the stream that's wrong.

The problem is, and you've done this before, is that you apply your personal standard to unsporting conduct and then refer to it as "what's right".

Out here, I'd be stuck working kindergarten ball if I T'd up some of these things.

I'm reminded of the phrase that says something about "you'd argue with a possum".

FTR, a chuckle at best.

Who says you're right though?

Crew to Bainsey: sure is a quiet gym
Bainsey to crew: yea, but those crickets are being disrespectful to me
Crew: hey partner, get it offer with....T'em and toss'em

"Lighten up Francis" :D

Or as my friend Dave would say, "When it's you against the world, bet the world."

My response to the first statement would have been "that's enough" or "that will be your last comment" or something to that effect if I felt the kid were being a smart-a$$. And I would make sure his coach or several of teammates heard me say it. Then if anything else comes out his mouth it would be an easy T.

Fair enough. Here's where we separate fact from opinion.

What's right is that what was spoken is an imperative sentence. As we all know (but perhaps some have forgotten), an imperative sentence is a defined as an order or command, directed at someone (with "you" understood, and therefore typically left out of the sentence). To say that this is not an order is to ignore the definition. This is black and white.

What's opinion is whether an imperative sentence from a kid a T-able offense. If I'm reading everyone else correctly, the general opinion is that it's technically an order, but so what? Or, you have to take into context what the kid said. (I won't dispute the subjectivity in this area.)

Or, it's not an order at all. This is the objective point that I dispute.

I'm the only one here who believes an imperative sentence from a kid is a T-able offense. That's fine. But, like the rules and their definitions we discuss here, our language has rules, too. If you choose not to T up a kid for giving you an order, that's one thing. Just don't tell me it's not an order.

Now who's ordering who? or is that whom?

"Whom." T me up, 7! :D

If the kid says "Pull your head out of your a$$, ref", that would be a T'able imperative.

"C'mon and lighten up on the calls a bit" is not a T'able imperative to anyone else who has commented on this thread. It's whining from a kid on the bench.

Again, tell him to knock it off and move on.

Oh FCOL.

When I tell my wife, "get me a glass of water," is that an order?
When I tell my commanding officer, "give me a second," is that an order?
When a coach says, "call the foul," is that an order?
When a player says, "give me a timeout," is that an order?


Sentence structure isn't nearly as important as context, tone, intent, etc. You know it, but you're digging in your heels on this. So be it.

If I think a player is actually trying to give me an order, sure, I'll consider a T. But this ain't it.

Player: "Give me a timeout."
Bainsey: *Technical foul*

According to what you said, you would T this kind up since this is an imperative from a kid to you. Now, I don't really think you would whack this kid would you (assuming he said it in a nonchalant way)?

YES, all of the above. By the standards of language, an order does not require subordination.

And for the record, I've never heard a kid say "give me a time-out." They've just yelled "time out!"

I get the feeling you'd be a tough partner to work with. Just my opinion.

Consider it a hypothetical then...are you going to T up his request...given to you in the form of an order?

So,

A1 has the ball in transition, only one player to beat. As he goes by B1, B1 hacks A1's arm. It slows A1 down slightly, but not enough to really affect his shot and he makes a wide open layup.

After his shot, B calls timeout. A1 approaches you to ask why you didn't call a foul.

"Because you played through it and got a wide open shot."

Player quietly responds, "call the foul."

You calling the T?

He's not ordering you to do anything. It's a request, with the "please" or "I wish you would" implied by the tone and context. I can guarantee you, I'm not giving any orders to my command structure, and if they took it as such I'd be in trouble.

Right. I believe we've discussed this before. You may or may not respect the person, but you respect the role.

How is that any different from our roles as officials?

Did you ever play the game? :D

Playing the game is completely irrelevant to officiating the game.

Plenty of coaches have said "Give me a time-out". Some have even said "Give me a f**king time-out". Have T'd any of them yet for that.

I have T'd an assistant coach for saying "that's a foul!", but that's because yelled it out twice.

Now this might warrant a T. Maybe not since he used them little ** thingies.

So, you normally assume the worst possible meaning?

Coaches disgusted with their teams. Curse word, yes. Directed at me or yelled out loud, no. So no T from me.

I've even had a coach say to me "Stop bullsh*tting" when I was BS'ing with my partner during a dead ball and the coach wanted to ask me a pertinent question. Again, curse word, yes. Imperitive statement, yes. Yelled outloud for others to hear, no. No T from me.

Of course, as I stated in another post a while ago, I don't remember ever giving a coach a T for cursing. Always have been for being demostrative and/or loud.

Players on the other hand, whole separate set of (stricter) standards.

"Worst?" How do you mean?

You're assuming it is an imperative (meant to command you do something and deserving a technical foul) by deconstructing the statement under a microscope as if it were formal, written grammar when it was merely informal, casual spoken language where words are frequently implied for the sake of brevity but are easily discernible from the greater situation. It could just as easily have been interpreted as a plea instead of a command and when viewed in the context in which it occured, that is all it was.

It is relevant and to dismiss it as having no relevance is narrowminded. Former players are getting opportunities to move up faster in part because of their understanding of the game.

Are there good officials who never played the game? I am sure there are, but former players understand the game better.

I must have been absent the day that poll was taken...

Beautifully stated, Cam. Very eloquent, indeed.

Still, I respectfully disagree. Just because a kid is frustrated is not a reason for him to be disrespectful. Instead, we need to learn to deal with our frustrating situations. If you don't handle them well, life can take you over easily.

Besides, I'm objectively taking the statement at face value. If the kid does not address an authority figure properly, be it a parent, teacher, or any other adult in charge, there are consequences. It's all rather simple. And once again, Juggling had to T up that same kid who wasn't handling the situation well. It was almost inevitable that a T was forthcoming.

And I thought I was argumentative.

But this is a subjective term. What's disrepectful to you may not be disrespectful to me and vice-versa. I have years of arguments with my ex-wife to prove this to be true. ;)

I've had the privilege over the last few years to work with some officials who have had some very successful careers. One common thread from all their pre-games is that we all have our own thresholds and we have to handle business how we see fit.

Not sure what your point is, but I have been to plenty of camps where some of the clinicians are former players. They will tell you that an assignor saw them play and the assignor has said when your playing days are over, call me and we will turn you into a referee. I have been in discussions with D1, D2, D3 assignors and they have said that former players understand the game and that those officials can be taught the other things they need to know.

Now that is not saying guys are just jumping right into a 50 game D1 schedule, just that they are getting more opportunties and they advance faster than someone who did not play.

Then it is up to them to work on the rest of their game.

Can you, for the purposes of this discussion, define "former players?" College? High School? Intramural?

I know of very few officials who never played basketball at any level. The fact is, most people who never played at all just aren't interested enough in the game to officiate it. I know of one such official, but only one. That's not a sample size worthy of determining the validity of your claim here.

The point is that his statement was NOT disrespectful at all. You're reading the wrong meaning into it. It is a request, not a demand.

The fact that the kid ultimately earned a T for another action doesn't change the meaning of his earlier statement.

I bet I could find more former players than not who really don't understand the game as well as the average HS Varsity official.

My final take on this infernal topic:

Yes, the statement is "imperative." No, it's not an order/command. Not every imperative statement is an order. An order/command requires intent and presumed authority; neither are present in the comment in question.

Not at all, I'm not sure where you're getting this. The one and only time I've used a stop-sign with a coach, he ran right through it and got a T. Does that mean the stop sign is an inneffective (or counter-productive) tool? Not at all. It just means that coach didn't get it.

That's complete nonsense. Former players around here are some of the biggest and worst ball watchers I've ever seen.

(And many of them are getting opportunities because they played for people who are helping them get those opportunities, too.)

It has nothing to do with the qualities they have as players. It has to do with having the right contacts.

All of us played at some level. Some former players are outstanding officials and some former players are terrible officials. Just like the people who didn't "play."

Change? Of course not. The impasse here is that I do indeed find it to be disrespectful, and not surprisingly, disrespectful actions continued to the point where Juggling T'd up the kid.

Intent? Probably not. Authority? Definitely. Are we not authority figures on the court? Besides, I'm not sure where you're getting your definition for "order," but it seems to be the crux of our division here.

Regarding your stop-sign point, I also never said such things were ineffective. Quite the contrary. I've used them a few times, and they've always worked (so far).

There it is. I think you provided some well-needed common ground, BNR. In fact, I think I'll steal that line for my own pre-games.

I don't know where it's written, or taught (other than Maine, apparently) that an imperative statement is a T.

I prefer Personal, Profane or Persistent. The Personal needle moves a little on this, the other two stay pegged at zero.

No-one taught me this. Like Juggling's area, such actions aren't all that common here, so that's where I draw the line. Besides, I don't talk to authority figures that way, either. It's my threshold. I don't think I could define it any more simpler.

Whatever threshold you choose to apply, being similar to the rest of the pack will usually work better for you than having a threshold different than the majority.

We have a few people around here who's T threshold is pretty low and it doesn't help them one bit with either coaches OR other officials. They just get labeled as overly officious, rabbit-eared, thin skinned, officials.

+1

And, the opposite (those who never T) have similar issues and equivalent monikers.

Kalos ...
 

"Every ethical virtue or positive character trait can be described as a pleasant intermediate activity, between a painful excess and a painful deficiency." (Aristotle)

Hey Fullor30!!!

Kind of glad we were away today? :D

Peace