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-   -   Wagner @ Santa Clara last shot (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/85531-wagner-santa-clara-last-shot.html)

HawkeyeCubP Mon Jan 09, 2012 02:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 811708)
Legal shot.

The shot went up roughly inline with the edge of the board (as viewed by the camera) and came down on a line in front of the edge of the board (as viewed by the camera). That means that the ball, at it's peak, short of a massive wind gust to move it, was in outside the corner of the board.

Of course, there is the issue of whether the rule means it is a violation if part of the ball, the center of the ball, or the whole ball passes over the top. If it were any part of the ball, I'd think this would be a violation (I think some of the ball probably did clip the space above the backboard) but if it were the center of the ball or the whole ball, no violation.
As discussed back in this thread, I still think it was most likely a violation. And post #19 on that thread has the NCAA rule reference regarding "any part" of the ball.

BillyMac Mon Jan 09, 2012 05:36pm
Words To Live By ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 811613)
If it's not illegal, it's legal.
Amen.

BillyMac Mon Jan 09, 2012 05:40pm
Where It Belongs ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 811708)
There is the issue of whether the rule means it is a violation if part of the ball, the center of the ball, or the whole ball passes over the top.
Hey Camron Rust. Take this over to the soccer Forum.

Camron Rust Mon Jan 09, 2012 06:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP (Post 811716)
As discussed back in this thread, I still think it was most likely a violation. And post #19 on that thread has the NCAA rule reference regarding "any part" of the ball.
True, regarding the NCAA rule, but the NFHS rule is silent on that element (which is what I was thinking about with that comment).

Still, it is not clear that any of the ball crossed over the backboard....it was certainly close, but not certain by anything we can see for sure in this video....and if it is uncertain, I'm not calling it.

ballgame99 Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickman5 (Post 811593)
Does the ball not bounce OOB off of the first try?
The side of the backboard isn't OOB, are you saying it hit the back of the backboard because it went backwards? I could go along with that.

Or are you saying it lands out of bounds? I thought the same thing.

Rich Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 811797)
True, regarding the NCAA rule, but the NFHS rule is silent on that element (which is what I was thinking about with that comment).

Still, it is not clear that any of the ball crossed over the backboard....it was certainly close, but not certain by anything we can see for sure in this video....and if it is uncertain, I'm not calling it.
I wouldn't kill the shot unless I was 100% certain it went over the board. I'm not that certain watching the video. So count it. It was a great shot.

Quite frankly, I thought this was great awareness by the C cause who would expect that shot to go in?

JugglingReferee Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:52am
When calculating the two endpoints along the end line where a shot could be legal, one matches the endpoint closest to the corner with the ball hitting the flange, and the endpoint furthest from the corner with the ball hitting the front of the rim.

My math shows that the endpoint furthest from the corner is about 165" from the corner. This is 13' 9" from the corner, or 11' 3" from the midpoint of the end line. This is 15" further from the corner than the midpoint of the top/bottom half of the end line. It is also 8' 3" outside the edge of the backboard. It is also 5' 3" outside the key.

Does any of that change your opinion of the shot? :eek:

Rich Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 811918)
When calculating the two endpoints along the end line where a shot could be legal, one matches the endpoint closest to the corner with the ball hitting the flange, and the endpoint furthest from the corner with the ball hitting the front of the rim.

My math shows that the endpoint furthest from the corner is about 165" from the corner. This is 13' 9" from the corner, or 11' 3" from the midpoint of the end line. This is 15" further from the corner than the midpoint of the top/bottom half of the end line. It is also 8' 3" outside the edge of the backboard. It is also 5' 3" outside the key.

Does any of that change your opinion of the shot? :eek:
I have two math degrees and I have no clue WTF you're talking about. :D

JugglingReferee Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 811924)
I have two math degrees and I have no clue WTF you're talking about. :D
Think Angry Birds.

rickman5 Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ballgame99 (Post 811911)
The side of the backboard isn't OOB, are you saying it hit the back of the backboard because it went backwards? I could go along with that.

Or are you saying it lands out of bounds? I thought the same thing.
Yeah I was thinking it hit the endline after the first try. Tough angle

pizanno Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 811918)
When calculating the two endpoints along the end line where a shot could be legal, one matches the endpoint closest to the corner with the ball hitting the flange, and the endpoint furthest from the corner with the ball hitting the front of the rim.

My math shows that the endpoint furthest from the corner is about 165" from the corner. This is 13' 9" from the corner, or 11' 3" from the midpoint of the end line. This is 15" further from the corner than the midpoint of the top/bottom half of the end line. It is also 8' 3" outside the edge of the backboard. It is also 5' 3" outside the key.

Does any of that change your opinion of the shot? :eek:
My head hurts, but I think i understand, and agree that - geometrically speaking - the ball broke the plane. But unless the C pulled out his slide rule, this would be too close to call. The more I think about it, this would be more convincing from the Lead (ala the official in the Larry Bird shot).

Camron Rust Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 811918)
When calculating the two endpoints along the end line where a shot could be legal, one matches the endpoint closest to the corner with the ball hitting the flange, and the endpoint furthest from the corner with the ball hitting the front of the rim.

My math shows that the endpoint furthest from the corner is about 165" from the corner. This is 13' 9" from the corner, or 11' 3" from the midpoint of the end line. This is 15" further from the corner than the midpoint of the top/bottom half of the end line. It is also 8' 3" outside the edge of the backboard. It is also 5' 3" outside the key.

Does any of that change your opinion of the shot? :eek:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 811924)
I have two math degrees and I have no clue WTF you're talking about. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by pizanno (Post 811941)
My head hurts, but I think i understand, and agree that - geometrically speaking - the ball broke the plane. But unless the C pulled out his slide rule, this would be too close to call. The more I think about it, this would be more convincing from the Lead (ala the official in the Larry Bird shot).
Here is an image I created a few years ago when discussing the same topic...

http://cbrust.smugmug.com/photos/384524600_c4zTf-L.png

I searched for the old post where I commented on it but have not yet found it...

...FOUND IT: http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...tml#post540504

BillyMac Tue Jan 10, 2012 05:18pm
Geek Heaven ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 811918)
My math shows that the endpoint furthest from the corner is about 165" from the corner. This is 13' 9" from the corner, or 11' 3" from the midpoint of the end line. This is 15" further from the corner than the midpoint of the top/bottom half of the end line. It is also 8' 3" outside the edge of the backboard. It is also 5' 3" outside the key.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 811944)
Here is an image I created a few years ago when discussing the same topic...
http://cbrust.smugmug.com/photos/384524600_c4zTf-L.png
I can tell that you guys know your way around a slide rule. Now, do either of you wear a pocket protector?

JugglingReferee Wed Jan 11, 2012 06:20am
My numbers were quite similar to those.

I did do some rounding, which is why I italicized "about".

My main calculation was based upon the middle of the ball hitting the front of the rim. In your example, it looks like you used the two edges of the ball.

I'm going to save your graphic rather than draw my own. ;)

just another ref Wed Jan 11, 2012 01:50pm
You have to allow for the wind.


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