Blarg

[force39]

Blarg happens, I had an official tell me that the way to handle is to give each a foul and go alternating possession? Doesn't sound correct? How would you handle.

[BillyMac]

4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball.
Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter
A1 returns one foot to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the
other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is (a) successful, or (b) not successful.
RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it
is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul.
The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try. In (a), the goal
is scored; play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for
Team B from anywhere along the end line. In (b), the point of interruption is a try
in flight; therefore the alternating-possession procedure is used. (4-36)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by force39

Blarg happens, I had an official tell me that the way to handle is to give each a foul and go alternating possession? Doesn't sound correct? How would you handle.

Almost....charge both and go to point-of-interruption (which may or may not be the AP).

[refiator]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Almost....charge both and go to point-of-interruption (which may or may not be the AP).

Yep. Gotta have a double foul and go with the AP....Then have a long talk at your earliest opportunity on how to avoid this in the future....A good pre game on primary coverage areas will help this.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by force39

Blarg happens, I had an official tell me that the way to handle is to give each a foul and go alternating possession? Doesn't sound correct? How would you handle.

Unless you're working NCAAW, the ruling is correct.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by refiator

Yep. Gotta have a double foul and go with the AP....Then have a long talk at your earliest opportunity on how to avoid this in the future....A good pre game on primary coverage areas will help this.

Earliest opportunity for a long talk is the pre-game. After the fact a good official will recognize if his actions are what caused the problem.

AP is not automatic, depends of the status of the ball at the time of the double foul.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by refiator

Yep. Gotta have a double foul and go with the AP....

Not necessarily.

If there's team control, POI, team A keeps the ball.

If there's a shot and the basket is good, POI, Team B gets the ball for throw-in, with the opportunity to run the endline.

[JRutledge]

I had one happen to me about a week or so ago with a fellow poster watching (at least I think he was watching at that time). I hate it when it happens, but it happens to the best of us. I did not see my partner and I signaled. Oh well, life moves on.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I hate it when it happens. I did not see my partner and I signaled.

I hate it when, as the lead, I don't hear my partner's whistle, usually due to crowd noise, and figuring that I'm the only caller, immediately come out with a strong player control foul signal, or a strong block signal, only then seeing my partner's fist in the air. So far, in over thirty years, no blarges, but it still scares the hell out of me.

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I hate it when, as the lead, I don't hear my partner's whistle, usually due to crowd noise, and figuring that I'm the only caller, immediately come out with a strong player control foul signal, or a strong block signal, only then seeing my partner's fist in the air. So far, in over thirty years, no blarges, but it still scares the hell out of me.

exact thing happened to me last year (first and only time), and Murphy's Law, my commmissioner was watching...pregame, pregame, pregame!

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by force39

Blarg happens, I had an official tell me that the way to handle is to give each a foul and go alternating possession? Doesn't sound correct? How would you handle.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball.
Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter
A1 returns one foot to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the
other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is (a) successful, or (b) not successful.
RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it
is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul.
The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try. In (a), the goal
is scored; play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for
Team B from anywhere along the end line. In (b), the point of interruption is a try
in flight; therefore the alternating-possession procedure is used. (4-36)

Force,

Because the calls are judgement calls, both fouls are penalized.

Imagine that only the L had a whistle on the play. The T did not have a whistle, so therefore just stood there watching the players after the L had the foul call. The L does his prelim and in his judgement, it is a block. Whether or not anyone agrees with the call, including the T who stayed silent on the matter, the crew will enforce a blocking foul.

Now imagine that only the T had a whistle on the play. The L did not have a whistle, so therefore just stood there watching the players after the T had the foul call. The T does his prelim and in his judgement, it is a player control foul. Whether or not anyone agrees with the call, including the L who stayed silent on the matter, the crew will enforce a player control foul.

Now imagine that both signal a prelim without waiting to see what the other official has. Since they both signalled, both are expressing their judgement of the play. Backtracking on one of those opinions (ie. only enforcing the block or the PC) throws both guys under the bus.

Their credibility could be shot. And that is what the case book play is avoiding, imho.

To prevent this, officials need education about situations where the blarge could come into play:

• whose primary did the play originate from?
• who has the primary defender and who has the secondary defender?
  • and for that matter, what is a primary defender and what is a secondary defender
• the pass and crash situation

Also to prevent this, officials need to follow approved mechanics: when your whistle goes, raise the fist in the air, and pause for a heartbeat or two, giving time to see if your partner has anything, and then make eye contact and go from there. IOW, don't go right to the prelim - which is what causes many blarges.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I hate it when, as the lead, I don't hear my partner's whistle, usually due to crowd noise, and figuring that I'm the only caller, immediately come out with a strong player control foul signal, or a strong block signal, only then seeing my partner's fist in the air. So far, in over thirty years, no blarges, but it still scares the hell out of me.

For whatever reason, it's hard for the L to hold the preliminary. It's much easier for the T/C to hold the preliminary. So, if there's a blarge, I usually "blame" the outside official.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

exact thing happened to me last year (first and only time), and Murphy's Law, my commissioner was watching...pregame, pregame, pregame!

Every single pregame that I participate in, as either the referee, or the umpire, will contain some variation of the following:

On double whistles, let’s both hold our preliminary signal and not give a block or player control signal.
Make eye contact with each other. Give the call to whoever has the primary coverage, most often the
lead official, unless you definitely have something different that happened first, in which case we’ll
talk about it.

Of course, this only works if both of the officials realize that there has been a double whistle.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

For whatever reason, it's hard for the L to hold the preliminary. It's much easier for the T/C to hold the preliminary. So, if there's a blarge, I usually "blame" the outside official.

Yup. Most pre-games around here involve discussion on the T/C holding off on giving a prelimiary.

Not sure of the reason either but I know it just feels natural to come out with a strong prelim as the L.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

For whatever reason, it's hard for the L to hold the preliminary. It's much easier for the T/C to hold the preliminary. So, if there's a blarge, I usually "blame" the outside official.

So very true..........