Goaltending on Backboard Slap
 

BV game tonight that I was the crew chief for. Had an interesting scenario that I'd like some input on.

I'm in the C opposite table and A1 drives to the basket from my primary to shoot a layup. B1 jumps to attempt to block the shot, misses the ball (barely) but hits the backboard. The goal shakes and ball falls out. I hold off on my whistle because I felt like he was attempting to block the shot. My partner (at the trail) comes in and calls goal tending. I figure he just kicked the call and thought B1 hit the ball on the way down. Team B's coach goes ballistic, gets T'ed up, and we have a four point swing.

We talk about the play after the game and the official told me he called the goal tending not because he hit the ball, but because he slapped the backboard. I explained to him the rule (either technical foul or nothing) and we moved on.

My question is if we caught that rule misinterpretation during the game, could we have ruled it an inadvertent whistle and went to the arrow for possession?

Assuming you caught it before the T, yes.

My only question is, why would Team A's coach go ballistic on a call that favored his team? Did you mean Coach B?

Yeah I meant Coach B

Had this same situation several years ago.http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...-straight.html

Hard to say for sure, but I *might*be going in and asking "what do you have?" to see if we can't get it right.

Why would you not get together and tell him that his call is wrong at the time and fix the problem?

<sigh>...many officials call this because it is the path of least resistance on this type of play. Count the basket and move one - easy enough for many right? Except it isn't the correct rule application.

My first varsity game ever I had the exact same play happen. I went home and looked up the ruling and will never make that mistake again. In my case, neither coach ever said a peep and they both just accepted it, but that didn't matter.

This is a tough scenario. By rule you CANNOT have a goaltending or basket interference call on this play. It is either a Technical foul or a play on.

The coach obviously knew the crew misapplied the rule and was well within is right to be upset. I am not happy calling a T to compound matters but sometimes guys lose their minds.

As the crew chief, we have to remember our #1 responsibility is to the game. In this situation, the right call was a no-call. I would do the best thing for the game and correct a misapplication of the rules. In other words wipe the violation and scored basket and going to the arrow. We have to display trust in our partners, but there are rare instances... a rules misinterpretation being one where you cannot be worried about hurting someone's ego or feelings. The calling official put the crew in a bad situation in the first place. As crew chief, you cannot allow that to happen and should have that understanding in the pregame that you make all final calls on a rules issue. If you let that go down and your name is on the game report as crew chief, your supervisor cannot defend your inactions.

This is easier said than done... especially from the confines of a computer screen versus in the heat of the moment in a tight ballgame. Hopefully this is a good learning situation for the crew. I would make sure your 3rd understands the rule moving forward... :)

He thought it was a judgment call, do you make it a habit to challenge your partners' judgment calls?

Some people (not necessarily who you're asking) apparently do. :D

Who You Gonna Call ???
 

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6230/6...473e048e_m.jpg

The backboard has nothing to do with goaltending. Goaltending when a player touches the ball during a try, or tap, while it is in its downward flight, entirely above the basket ring level and has the possibility of entering the basket. On most layups, the ball is going up after it contacts the backboard. It is legal to pin the ball against the backboard if it still on the way up and not in the imaginary cylinder above the basket. Slapping the backboard is neither basket interference nor is it goaltending and points cannot be awarded. A player who strikes a backboard, during a tap, or a try, so forcefully that it cannot be ignored because it is an attempt to draw attention to the player, or a means of venting frustration, may be assessed a technical foul. When a player simply attempts to block a shot and accidentally slaps the backboard it is neither a violation nor is it a technical foul. (NFHS)

I thought that he had B1 touching the ball on its way down. I didn't know he was misapplying the backboard rule. I didn't ask him about it because I wouldn't have been able to overturn his judgement call of B touching the ball or not.

Too many unfortunately. :rolleyes:

This is not a judgment call. The official incorrectly assessed a goaltending violation on a play due to not knowing the rule. If it were a close game and resulted in a technical foul on the coach the play went against shame on us. We can all be better that allowing that to happen.

On rules plays, I think the crew MUST get the interpretation correct at the expense of the calling official's ego. On judgment calls, you let your crew live and die.

As the crew chief, the supervisor has given him added authority for situations such as this. If he was the U1 or U2 then all you can do is provide the CC with information and hope they do what is right for the game.

Did you read Rickman's followup post?

Whether the ball is on its way down IS a judgment call.

Maybe in your world. We have no "crew chiefs" here (other than for scheduling purposes in some conferences) and the R only has the power to resolve disagreements on whether goals count or not and to rule on items not specifically covered in the rules (these are specifically outlined in the NFHS Officials Manual).

Snaq's point is that the off official *thought* the ball got touched on the way down -- it wasn't obvious to him it was called only because the backboard was slapped. In that situation, do you actually stop the game...on a guess?

oops....didn't see that. Yes, if he thought the defender touched the ball then there is nothing you can do other than review player coverage on tape to ensure that he had an open look.

My initial read was that he called the violation solely for the contact with the backboard.... this is among the most frequently misinterpreted rules.

Well, it seems like Tio is trying to be the crew chief of this thread. Honestly, all of that crew chief talk lost me. I think once you are used to being the R or crew chief you can have a pregame and game without letting everyone know you are the R. Your posts seem kind of heavy-handed with the crew chief responsibility.

By the way, I agree with mbyron - goaltending and/or giving a T for slapping the backboard are both judgement calls.

Really. I know it's a trite camp saying, but everyone should have an R's mentality. The ability to take charge and handle situations. My regular partner does that quite well as (I think) do I - I can't imagine having to clean up one of his situations and vice versa. I do work with others who are not this strong and I'm, essentially, the R regardless of who checked the books and tossed the opening jump.

In football, the crew chief (the R) does have the final say on a play where two officials disagree and won't yield their calls, but it's a "power" I'm loathe to use and for good reason. It does little for crew harmony when I'm heavy handed and I learned this the hard way. Everyone know I'm the crew chief there (since I'm the only one wearing a white hat) and I spend most of my time trying to convince everyone that I'm just working one of the 5 positions and have my own responsibilities.

The T did call the violation strictly because of the contact with the backboard. He did not think the defender contacted the ball at all.

The C (our OP for this thread), however, had no way of knowing. My point is, if my partner makes this call and I don't know why, I'm going to assume he knows the rule and saw something I didn't. I'm not stopping the game to correct him, most likely.

Absolutely nothing wrong with these statements.

In my area, the assignor usually books the most experienced official as the R. That doesn't mean he can't screw up or is always right. But if there's a screwup, guess he the assignor is calling. So while there may not be anymore authority per the rule book, there is an expectation from the assignor. If that's not the case in your area, great.

Nowhere did he say he would change the call. He made it clear that the calling official would have to change the call.

If you know I misapplied a rule and you don't have the balls to come to me and discuss it, then you don't have an R's mentality.

HaHa..forgive me...truly we should all strive to have a Crew Chief mentality even if not assigned on paper.

I am extremely passionate about the game. As an official, I go into each game with the following goals (in order of importance):

1. Do what's best for the game
2. Do what's best for the crew
3. Do what's best for me

First and foremost my first priority is to do what is right for the game...always. I heard this at a camp many years ago and have taken it with me.

It drives me crazy when we miss a play...at a crucial juncture of a game then compound it with a technical foul against the team the incorrect call went against. We don't need the tech. if we get the play right, plain and simple.

I don't get all of my plays right...but I do know the rules very well and will not allow a rule to be misapplied in my games.

Must make for long games with all the IW's.

You have a lot of rule misapplications in your games? :confused:

That's just it. If I "know" a rule is being misapplied, I'll talk to my partner about what she saw. But if there's even a slight chance she saw something I didn't, I'm not even asking.

I've corrected backcourt calls from lead when the throw came from my primary. I've also let quite a few go when it wasn't clear cut.

For the OP, as bob said, I might talk to my partner and I might not, it's likely to be dependent upon how obvious it is that the ball wasn't touched.

There are plenty of them if you really wanted to dig into a game film. Its just a matter of which hornet's nest you want to kick.

Game film? What does an IW, as stated in your previous post, have to do with looking at game film? I guess I should have asked, "Do you see a lot of rule misapplications in your games while officiating?" That's the discussion.

I agree that there are judgment calls that are made in every game that are wrong. But a bad judgment call is not a rule misapplication. As I said earlier, if we were working together and you knew I misapplied a rule, I would hope you would come to me and discuss it.

Exactly.

Without question, I would have went to him and asked him if his whistle was for touching the ball (goaltending) or slapping the backboard. If ball goes in no problem, the defensive team gets ball and canrun the line. If ball doesn't go in you have an inadverdant whistle and the result is an AP. If that is the situation then get both coaches together and let them know the deal.

As a result of the play, you had a blown rule and a technical becuase the CREW blew the rule........

If the guy got his feelings hurt, too bad !!!!!!

Do you approach your partner to check on his backcourt violations, too?

You're killing two clichés with one stone here: making a mountain out of a molehill and beating a dead horse, all at the same time.

I think most of us would all agree we don't go questioning our partners' judgment calls on a regular basis. But comparing this situation to a run-of-the-mill backcourt or travel call is comparing apples to oranges as long as we're pulling out all the stops on the cliché wagon.

In this type of unusual situation, I don't think it hurts anyone to take a moment and make sure everyone is on the same page. Now, do I want you coming in and making a spectacle and overturning my call? No, but if you want to come over to me and ask me what I had, I'm not going to get all bent out of shape as long as it doesn't keep happening during the game.

It's not that big of a deal. Just get it right.

Agreed.

Last night, I had a blocking foul in the midcourt. The defender came flying at me so much, I considered for an instant whether he was flopping. I saw no LGP, so I went with the block.

The partisan parents disagreed strongly, and the coach asked me if I had seen the elbow. From my angle (straightlined, as it turned out), I saw no elbow, and that's what I told him.

After the game, my young partner told me he was about to call a PC foul, but I was so confident with my block call, that he backed down. I really wish he had come and talked with me, for reasons Fiasco mentioned -- just the sake of getting it right. I would never feel ill will to any partner who came and talked to me.

The only time I've ever felt such ill will was an elderly partner who overruled my backcourt call several years ago without talking with me. (I was too green and stunned to say anything at that time.) If you think your partner is wrong, go forth and communicate, but let him decide whether to make the change. I don't see how any bad feelings could result from that.

BS, I was responding to a new post.

Who said run of the mill? The only way I approach my partner on this is if he has done something else previously to make me think I can't trust him to know the rules. Otherwise, I'll assume he saw something I didn't.

You're C and your T calls GT with the ball on its way up, but near its peak. You going to extend the stoppage to make sure he didn't get the rule wrong?

Why do you keep asking questions about unrelated situations?

In the situation actually being discussed in the thread, I don't see it at all unusual to take a few seconds to make sure the crew gets the call right, especially when you have a notion that a rule may have been misapplied.

Attempting.....But DID he block the shot? If not, you have a quick "T" for the vibration making the ball fall out...No goal tending on that, but two shots plus the ball. Faster reaction time and better communication with your partner may have averted a fiasco, I'm just saying'.......

Say what?

If a player makes a legit attempt at blocking the ball and hits the backboard, you can cause the basket to shake till kingdom come and it's still legal under NFHS rules.

I'm assuming the slap was intentional on a missed block, causing the ring to vibrate, and the ball falls clear.....

If the defender attempts to block a shot and the same motion hits the backboard, play on.

Huh? Slap was intentional on a missed block? I'm not catching your meaning.

You have to make a judgment call: was the slap part of a legitimate attempt to make a play on the ball, or was it not? If so, T. If not, play on.

Do you have a rules citation for this? A great myth that is never accompanied by a quote from the rule or case book.

That explains the entire team who stood making a T signal when their opponent hit the backboard on a missed block attempt. I put them in timeout.

I think there are 2 different scenarios we could clarify.

1. Partner calls goaltending on the basis of a backboard slap. As a result of not knowing the rule.

2. Partner calls goaltending thinking the defender deflects the ball on the way down.

When we have the play as stated by the OP, our radars should go up as a crew and I think either way a quick conversation with the calling official is appropriate since this call is at a critical juncture of the game. In 1, IMO, we get the play right and either choose to penalize with a Technical foul or a play on - We cannot have goaltending on this play.

In 2, there is nothing we can do. If your partner sees something that just isn't there we have to live with it and hope to all learn from the situation and get the play right next time.

This is a great discussion and certainly my approach may not be appropriate for certain groups or areas, but I wholeheartedly believe in doing what is right for the game. In situation 1, this is to get the play and administration correct.

Wow. Really, do you think that's the rule?

If it's obvious to Ray Charles that the player didn't hit the ball, a quick convo might be in order. If I even have an inkling that he thought the ball was hit, I'm not delaying the game. I'll ask later, but not now.

The point is, I have no idea what he's thinking when he calls it, and unless I've had other reasons to doubt his rules knowledge, I'm going to assume he saw something I didn't.

He could make a call because the kid has red hair, and I wouldn't know. He's not telling me his justification (most likely).

So let's pose a scenario.

The team who the goaltending and subsequent Technical foul is assessed against loses a close ballgame and the game is huge for playoff implications.

In the locker room after the game, you ask your partner about the call and he says "The defender hit the backboard causing the ball to pop out of the ring. The coach was wrong, that was a goaltending violation."

Now your supervisor is on the phone wanting to know what you did as crew chief to ensure the play was handled correctly. What do you say?

In the OP, "you" clearly saw that the ball wasn't touched. So, I'm (probably) going in to ask. If he then says the ball was touched on the way down, we'll live with that.

It's much the same as providing extra information on an OOB call, IMO.

The same thing I would have done to ensure his backcourt call was correct. If it's obvious that the ball wasn't touched, I'll initiate a conversation. If it's not, I'll assume he saw hand on ball when he made the call.

If my assigner wants to press, I'll ask him if he can tell me which calls I should be challenging my partners on to make sure they understand the rules. If I'm feeling particularly snippy, I'll tell him I assumed the partner he assigned me knew the rules.

I don't know, he said "barely." I'm not sure that's "clearly" enough for me.

I think you are missing the entire point myself and many others are trying to get across, but that is fine... everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

IMO - this deserves at minimum a conversation. I have seen guys lose games and in some cases careers derailed based on incorrect rules applications. And it almost always affects the entire crew. Do you want your partner's poor decision to impact your schedule, playoff assignments, etc?

But the bottom line is, our #1 job every night is to do what is right for the game - to get our plays right. This didn't happen in this case, and so hopefully the crew can learn from it and get the play right next time.

I'm not missing anything that's being said. Things like "I'm not letting a rule get misapplied in my game" are what I'm responding to. Frankly, you can't possibly stop it unless you question every call your partner makes.

A trails by 3 with 3 seconds left. 3 man crew, you're T for a FC throw-in on the endline near the 3 pt line. A1, after throwing the pass, receives a return pass just as his foot hits the floor IB (barely). L calls OOB. A coach goes ballistic and gets a T, B makes the FTs and the game ends.

In the locker room, the L starts talking about how the coach doesn't obviously doesn't know the rule that says a player must establish two feet in bounds after he's been OOB. What do you tell your assigner when he asks you what you did as the R to make sure the play was handled correctly?

Just my opinion here, but my knee-jerk reaction at this point in my career and for the games I work is that 1) conversations on calls like this - where partners do not have definite info on, for example, the defender not touching the ball - undermine the credibility and believability of the crew for the rest of the game, and 2) this type of "learning from it" needs to happen in the locker room at half time or post game, because my partners and I should know these pretty basic rules. At lower-level games, I suppose on-court discussion-stuff could be situationally appropriate, though - so I guess it could be relative to the situation.

You have a fair point...although, I don't think the situation in the OP and the scenario you have drawn up are the same.

We have blurred the lines between changing the call and asssessing the correct penalty for the infraction. The key topic from the OP is that latter.

Both involve a legal play that was ruled a violation due to a misapplication of the rules.

Where's Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. When You Need Him ???
 

Not true about twenty-five years ago. I believe that the rule, back then, stated that if the backboard shook to a certain degree, that an official could charge a technical foul. There are still still some old coaches coaching, and some old officials officiating.

You'll have to forgive me for not knowing that...seeing as I wasn't even alive yet.

How did they measure the "certain degree?" Thermometer? :)

Again, Where's Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. When You Need Him ???
 

Heh? It was more than twenty-five years ago? You expect me to remember the exact wording? I'm lucky if I can remember what I had for breakfast this morning.

Not Old, Experienced ...
 

I have socks older than you.

So, are you saying that you're not even sure such a rule exist? :rolleyes:

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr., Where Are You ???
 

Maybe it was a dream?

Were You Talking To Me ???
 

What rule? Were we talking about a rule?

Rule? No. You ask if I knew anyone that had a MULE for sale.