Have any of you ever called...
 

...a five-second throw-in violation, when you weren't administering?

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If I'm not mistaken, one of our esteemed forum members is the officials who gets completely hung out to dry in this video ...

No, I Haven't
 

Was the guy in the frontcourt keeping his own count or something?

Could see the guy administering the OOB counting. Did his partner think his count was too slow?

Where's the video from the locker room afterwards....LOL

The non-administering official seemed to be saying the the administering official should have started his count right away after the made basket.

Definitely not a good look for the crew. The new trail was on top of the play and Black did not delay in getting the ball at their disposal.

Rich, are you on a first name basis with these officials?

I am sure that locker room was very interesting after the game. :)

Peace

That Guy is everywhere.

If I was the administering official there is no way in hell that I would allow that bozo's call to stand. I would have told him to get his fat tuchus over to the bench's and explain that he screwed the pooch (as we baseball umpires say) and I don't care if he was the R. I would have never allowed any team but the blue team have the ball for throw-in. As one can see, to say I would have been :mad:, would have been an understatement.

MTD, Sr.

WoW!
 

"7-8% advantage to the home team"......remember that!

Hung out to dry!

My GUESS is that since he had time restored on the clock he used the game clock to determine 5 seconds had elapsed. Not sure when he thought the 5 seconds should have started but it appears he started when the ball hit the floor after the made basekt.

That is what I think he did.....but none of that makes it right.

That's what I think he seems to be indicating with his hand gestures. But, wow, that's horrible.

Looks like the younger guy did his best to try to straighten the bozo out, but the bozo just got more forceful with his hand gestures. Not much the younger guy could do right then and there on the court. Hopefully that video has been turned in to their assignor...

Except that the commentator said 7 seconds were left and he had it reset to 3 seconds. Someone would have made my block list immediately after the game.

Would have been a long and silent ride home.

After seeing this I don't feel quite as bad about last week when my partner called a foul from lead on a shooting foul on a 3 pointer at the top of the key.

Memories
Light the corners of my mind
Misty watercolor memories
Of the way we were
Scattered pictures
Of the smiles we left behind
Smiles we gave to one another
For the way we were

Especially since they would be riding on the bus or in a taxi!

One of them was under the bus.

to say I would be pissed is an understatement. That is unbelievable.

Hahahahahahaha!!!!!

I thought they were going to start fighting right there on the court. That is horrible.

At least there is video evidence if EVER to pull an official off a varsity list. This is not just a minor screw up but a pretty big one IMO.

Stay In Your Primary ???
 

Gee? Do you think he was reaching out of his primary?

OH. MY. GOD.

I am pretty nice even when partners screw up, but there might have been a fight in the locker room after this if I were the Trail. What a bozo.

That old war horse would have left the locker room with a new a** h*** when I was though with him. Absolutely NO EXCUSE for hanging your partner out like that. That's definitely That Guy. New addition to the scratch list.

All I can say is WOW!

It looks pretty bad...
 

...and no one can defend the Ts actions, but the lead has about as slow a 5-second count as I've seen (but by my count, it still wasn't a 5-second violation). Also, if there are eight seconds left in a game at the beginning of the throw-in and the buzzer goes off while the administrating official is still counting (although that didn't happen here), that doesn't look so good either. It looks to me like someone was trying to get a point across, and didn't give a rip if they did it on a TV broadcast. That certainly must have been an interesting post-game meeting.

Based on what? One freaking arm swing?

Watching the video, I barely got to three when she released the pass.

Do you mean the Lead's actions?

Somebody would have had to pull me off him.

Me too. This pisses me off the more I watch it. I would have told him on the court that I'm reporting him to the assignor, and I would have called the assignor the minute we got in the car.

Why wait? I would have called the assignor from the locker room with the bozo sitting right there listening.

If you look at the timer at the bottom of the video stop it when the ball hits the floor, 26 seconds, when the player has the ball in Her hands, 28 seconds, when She releases the ball, 31 seconds.

So in "His" understanding of the rule it was exactly 5 seconds when He blew his whistle. He just had to step in and "get" that game critical call, He appears to be the "vet" after all. Boy oh Boy isn't he a great partner.

Unfortunately if it works there the way it does around here, He is probably great friends with the assignor and the "in crowd" and the only thing He will have to do is accept a little razzing and buy a round or two when they all get to the after game meeting site. :rolleyes:

I guess we know where the term being homered comes from. Embarrasing. we have a hard enough time when we do things right. :p

Interesting answer to that question...with at least one of them I suppose.

You're right, someone owned up to being the official overruled in this video.

who?

I'm trying to search for the thread, but I know for a fact we've discussed this video before and we had someone own up to the fact that they were the one overruled in the video.

Ecce Homo
 

So which one of them are you? :D

Thinking Outside the Box (I hate cliches...)
 

Disregard post I just tried to delete on whether there was something else going on here. After listening to it with sound, I heard him verbalize "Five Seconds", though nowhere in the clip did I see any five fingers signifying it. I thought, without sound, that he might have had something else. Don't know what all the pointing downward was about.

Could be any of that, but it isn't.

The game happened a couple of years ago. It was discussed here (not that it can't be discussed again), and it is what it seems. The general comments then were the same as they are now -- it's not the one official's call, and he called it too early (before 5).

I was in Texas at the time so it wasn't me. We know the new trail though and I think he handled it as best as he could.

Anyone know the title to the old thread or have a link to it?

99% certain it was deleted.

Oh that's right, it was deleted, by the originator of the thread. I remember now.

Relax, I'm just having fun with it.

Who says I'm not relaxed? It's Christmas Eve, I'm hanging out in the kitchen making goodies and eating chips and salsa. It's a good day.

Still kinda weird.

I've found him!!
 

That guy's next call will be the multiple foul...I'm just sure of it now...If only I could know where his next assignment is...hope it's a tv game:D

Visible Counts For Everything But Three Seconds ...
 

... and, although we don't know for sure, he probably didn't have a visible count.

Maybe I'm just projecting...my in laws are here. Nothing says Christmas like getting the family that can't stand each other together!

. . . For the Rest of Us
 

You should switch to celebrating Festivus instead. At least the grievances would be out in the open. :D

That doesn't require a holiday with my family. :D

Yeah, but at least with a holiday you get food.

It's been a busy couple of days as far as Christmas preparations and the like go, so I've mostly been following this thread on the phone while out and about. My single post thus far was while sitting at the Wisconsin / Mississippi Valley State game yesterday afternoon. I'll try to summarize my thoughts with some quick bulletpoints:

-- Yes, I was the "new trail."

-- Yes, I had a bus driven over me then had it stop, reverse, and back over me again.

-- garef314: My count in neither throw-in was *slow*. I timed the first throw-in (the one after the timeout) with a stopwatch and it's 3.5 seconds from handing her the ball until she released the throw-in. If you watch the video again, I'm between 3 and 4 on my count when the ball was released. Exactly how is that slow?

-- I was hyper-aware of the situation and remained so during the entire play until I got hit by the bus. The ball went through the basket with 8 seconds remaining in the game. But as we all know the five second count doesn't begin until the ball is at the disposal of the thrower-in. I was aware that the new offense might try to delay here, but I'm not going to change how I administer the count just because the home team had used up all their timeouts and because there were only 8 seconds left in the game. I started counting at the exact same place I would've at any other point in the game.

-- I started the count when the clock was between 5 and 6 seconds left in the game. Yes, I had an eye on the ball and thrower-in and another on the clock. I would've had a violation, likely, with less than a second left in the game had it gotten that far. The bus arrived before that.

-- tomegun: I was angry, angrier than I've ever been on a court before or since. And yet, watching the video, I feel I'm about as composed as I could've possibly been, given the circumstances. I used to gesture with my hands and arms when talking, but I've really worked on not doing that and I'm happy that my hands, for the most part, stay by my sides.

-- I moved to a new town in 2008 and this game was in December of 2009 -- I drove separately. After the game, I went in the locker room, changed clothes quickly without showering, and left without saying a word. I was as close to the edge as I've ever been before or since.

-- My partner was not the senior official. Yes, he's older by about 8-10 years, but I was 40 at the time in my 23rd season of working high school basketball and at least 18 years since I started regularly working varsity games. Who the R was is irrelevant, really -- we always take turns with the duties and we decide at the school who the R will be on a given night.

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how I could've handled that situation better. I've spent a lot of time thinking about that situation when I'm the senior guy working with a relatively new person. Even though I didn't fit that description, I never want to be someone who steps on a partner like this for *any* reason.

The aftermath is that the winning coach (the home team did not hit their last shot) was more appalled at our disagreement than the call (which, knowing the typical rural girls' coach -- he had no clue that the new lead couldn't make this call). He contacted the commissioner himself and the commissioner called me a few days later. I explained to the commissioner exactly what had happened and he, too, was more concerned about the appearance of us disagreeing on the court than with what that official did, although he knew enough that he couldn't believe that the lead would make such a call. I still work for that assignor -- but only 1-2 dates a year (my choice -- he only has one school less than an hour from my house).

I deleted the original thread because one poster decided to come onto the thread and use it as an excuse to blast me, for whatever reason. BTW, I never said this was a terribly well-officiated game. It was a sloppy, foul-ridden game with the score in the low 30s. I think it's hard for any crew to look good in a game like this.

I really don't want to relive this over and over every couple of seasons, but if anyone has any questions, go ahead. Or PM me. I refuse to deal with personalities. On the other hand, film don't lie.

Was this typical for this guy? Did he make other calls across the court in front of you?

Rich,

You had every right to be ticked off. I think you handled it better than most would have.

Peace

Amen to that. The self control you demonstrated in a situation when I would be tempted to physically remove my partner's head from his shoulders is amazing.

And it sucks, Rich, that you got dumped on the first time you tried to talk about this situation, and again this time.

That's one of the things I really don't like about this board sometimes (and I do it too...I'm trying to improve), is the unintentional game of "gotcha" that we all get into from time to time, trying to find something relatively unrelated to nitpick (oh, your count was slow....which it wasn't) while ignoring the larger message (you got rolled over by a Mac truck...what can we all learn from this situation) in an effort to make ourselves look better, smarter or more experienced. I wish we all did a little less of it, or at least approached it in a much less condescending way.

:rolleyes:

Exactly. ;)

Peace

A big part of me wishes I could read an explanation from the calling official on that play.

It would have to be from bizzaro world. Three is in no rule, mechanic or standard that makes him call and even weirder for it to take place at this time of the game. I just do not understand this at all.

Peace

Me neither, and any explanation would likely be an elaborate version of, "I had a brain fart." But as adamant as he seemed, I have to imagine he was pretty sure of himself and felt he had a good reason for it. Reading it would be a sort of anthropological exercise.

Let's just say he felt justified that night and a while later. No idea if he would still feel that way.

The worst part was that I had to go administer that designated spot throw-in to the home team that was down 1 with the added seconds put back on the clock. The last-second shot attempt (more of a heave) from my corner had some contact and I did not call a foul, but I was waiting for a call to come from the trail position.

Good times, good times.

Hats off to you for being able to keep your composure at all and finish. I think I would have been blind with rage.

Be late. Nope.
Be right. Nope.
Be needed. Nope.

Even after having it explained to him that he misapplied the rule? :confused:

Yes. He thought I waited too long to start the count and "we're not having the game end that way." It's not even the rule mistake that bothers me -- I can deal with rule mistakes. It's the idea that an official *ever* has the notion to make a 5-second call on a throw-in *he's not administering* that I'll never understand.

He simply panicked. The game was probably too big for him because if it was not, he would not have been worried about what you were doing in that situation. That is why some guys never get to a certain level because they cannot handle the stress of the game in these kinds of situations. I think all the other justification is a way for him not to admit he was not ready and might never be. Why else would he justify his actions well after the fact?

Peace

He's the "get it right at all costs" guy who mocks officials who try to stay in their area. He probably had spent the entire game getting frustrated with Rich's count, or he wouldn't even have had a count here.

I could not agree anymore with this post. :)

Peace

Yep.

Having the game end what way? By letting the administering official count like he is supposed to? By letting a team have five seconds to throw the ball in after the ball is at their disposal? He didn't like it that the clock was running and the team that was winning apparently (In his mind) took too long to gather the ball for the throw-in? This guy would be on my scratch list within minutes of the game being over.

May be the most despicable thing I have ever seen. That could easily be a career-ender.
I one had a partner over rule an out-of-bounds call without coming to me to let me change my own call based on his observations...That was bad enough.:mad:

:confused::eek:

So... that wouldn't be a cool thing to do in the first half, but perfectly acceptable at the end of a game?

I hate that way of thinking.

This ticked me off when it was posted the first time way back in the day. I think it grinds me even more today. I just cannot fathom anyone doing this.

I know you said you were quiet and out of the locker room in a hurry. Did he say anything?

He went into the shower and I took the opportunity to quickly dress and walk out.

I am sure that was telling to him even if he was not aware of how bad his call was.

Peace

That's too bad, Rich. Sorry that a fellow official had to deal with something/someone like this...hopefully you shook the dust off your shoes and (other than it popping up on the forum every now and then) moved on without ever looking back.

It's hard to do, but that guy is really not worth your time or effort.

If I were in Rich's shoes I would love everytime this video pops up. It doesn't show how he messed up but instead shows how he handled a bad situation.

This video does nothing but shine Rich in a good light. yes, the situation sucks. But it does NOT reflect at all on Rich.

Absolutely!

Just for fun... what if "that guy" had done the same thing but been correct on the rule etc?

then what's wrong with having humility and saying yup, I screwed up.

I can't see ever blowing five seconds from there. About fifteen seconds later you might want to call a timeout, because you would assume your partner was in a coma or something.

Agreed. In this game, shot made with 8 seconds left, I'm letting the horn wake him up.

Don't Walk Toward The Light ...
 

Either that, or an automated external defibrillator.

The only time i had a count out of my primary was in a summer girls tournament with backcourt 10 seconds count. My partner seemed to have a brain fart and by the time I came in and made the 10 second call it probably was about 13-14 seconds. My cue that he didnt have a count, was when i didnt see his visible count, so i picked it up. It was in a crucial part of the game as well.

Hmmmmmm...don't think I said anything about it reflecting on Rich or that Rich messed anything up. Simply commiserating with a fellow official who got crapped on by his partner

This is not a rule issue, this at best would be a mechanics and judgment issue. The new lead should not be making judgments on when the ball is at the disposal of a player after a made basket. He better be looking at players coming up the court and paying more attention to that. Then he is totally wrong to even be counting during that situation mechanically. So he is wrong in both ways. I would not want to be "that guy" in the video at all.

Peace

Still, the question remains, what IF he was right? What if the clock was on 8 (or even 9 or 10 or even more) when the thrower clearly had the ball OOB and was attempting to make the throwin but it ran to 2, 1 or 0? At what point will you blow the whistle to get it right? Are you going to let the thrower have 8-10 seconds? Or will you, at some point, make a crew call?

IF I make a "crew call", then I blow the whistle, get together and explain what I have and the crew makes the call.

How can you be right by doing that? First of all the rules state that the official's signal is what is the judge. Granted our count should be close, but you have just undermined the entire crew by doing this. You cannot be right in a situation like this. This is not like calling in someone's primary, it is literally taking their call from them in every way. It would be like the lead calling a violation on the FT shooter. Or the Lead calling a backcourt violation on a player touching the division line. At best he was guessing as he has no idea when the official judged the ball being at disposal.

Peace

Why would new L be watching and counting the 5 second count? Who's watching the other 9 players while this is going on?

That being said, there's some situations where you have to leave and die with what your partner calls or doesn't call.

You just don't.

You can stand, look puzzled, and wonder to yourself, isn't that five? You can even question him after the game about it. However, you trust your partner to make that call. It's his end line, his call.

It's nearly impossible to get straightlined on a five-second throw-in violation, so you're not helping anyone by looking past the end line.

I understand Camron's question. A scores with 15 seconds left. As new lead, you see B1 immediately take the ball out of the net and step out. You start a count in your head, as one should at this point, for the sake of backing up the game clock. Your count reaches 11, and you look to see B1 still standing out of bounds with the ball, flanked by the new trail, standing passively with hands at his side. Do you blow the whistle at all, or do you let the clock expire, thinking "Boy, die he screw up!"

Do you call travels all over the court when you do not have ball coverage responsibility at all too? What about ruling a player left their designated spot your partner has too? There are a lot of situations we could "think" our partner did not get it right. If one person can do that job, then we do not need 2 or 3 official on the game, just one would be sufficient.

Peace

No, but I would not be surprised to learn that the guy in the video does. The question at hand is what to do if you find yourself in a game deciding situation with the polar opposite of this guy. How much, if any, does one expand one's normal responsibilities?

The crew as a whole is charged with administering the game. Mechanics are a simply a guideline to getting it done....they are not the rules. They are guidelines that should generally, almost exclusively, be followed....but don't let the guidelines rope you in to doing the wrong thing because its not your call. Our first priority is the game. Yes, one official has the responsibility to call it but the entire crew has the responsibility to address an obvious infraction of the rules.

This is not unlike that Rutgers/St. Johns game last year where all three officials got suspended for screwing up the end of the game. Only one of them had responsibility according to the mechanics but they all paid for it. All were expected to step up and do the right thing for the game. If any one of them had stepped up and dealt with it, there would have never been an issue. Sure, one of them might have been irritated, but it would have been over and forgotten about.

At the very least, the new lead, after some time, should either be calling the violation or stopping the clock to deal with the unusual delay in the team being able to take the ball OOB for a throwin...and I'm not saying it was enough in the above situation, 8 seconds is not enough to jump in....there was no unusual delay in the ball being available.

You don't have to watch it to know. If you have clock awareness, and know that a shot went in a 12 seconds, you know that time can't expire before the throw is released. If you get to 0 without a throwin, no matter who has coverage, you've got a big problem and need to deal with it....you're both responsible, not just the new trail. The new trail might take the most heat but the new lead is not without blame.

If you see it and know it and it is something that every single person in the gym could see and know, you just have to get it right, even if it makes you or your partner look bad for a moment. People will forget about who jumped in to get it when there is an elephant on the court but no one will forget that the crew completely screwed up the game by missing an elephant on the court.

Is Officiating A Science, Or An Art ???
 

Does the old, "Ant Versus Elephant", metaphor apply here?

Some people (see the video in the OP) just do a poor job of judging what is an elephant and what isn't.

Kudos to Rich- A thank you to all (most of you anyway)>
 

Rich,
I can't tell you how terribly impressed I am with your composure in this situation. I have always found your posts to be some of the most reasonable ones made on this site and the video only confirms this.Your partner took this game over and deserves all the credit for the FUBAR situation he caused. Short of hitting him with Chseagle's taser I don't think there is much else you could have done.Thank goodness the team did not hit the last shot....
It is very difficult to tell how agitated you are...you can tell that you do not agree with your "partner" but you are not demonstrative. I thought you handled yourself with class and dignity....I may have been tempted to take all of my partners clothes with me while he was in the shower and let him go out of there naked...kinda the way he left you on the court.

I have been following this board since I started officiating about 6 years ago and I give a lot of thanks to guys like you for helping me understand the game a lot better. This site has certainly helped me rise through the ranks fairly quickly by being prepared for just about any situation from dealing with Coaches (My biggest weakness) to strange case plays.
I feel like I know a lot of you personally (Most of you in a positive way) just by reading this Forum over the past 6 years. The forum allows people to speak their mind on a myriad of subjects and get constructive feedback.
I just wanted to thank you all for contributing to this Forum. Despite some of the inevitable bickering that goes on it is a fantastic tool to developing as a referee. I am looking for the day that this site is turned into a reality show. When I work with some of the less experienced guys that I think have potential I turn them on to this site...not sure if any of them have heeded my advice but I hope they do.
For the record I really miss Mick and his sense of humor.
Jurassic-I know you don't post much anymore but your insight/commentary is the one I respect above all others...even if you are a curmudgeonly old man :)
If any of you are ever working down in my little corner of CT (I think it is a different corner than Billy Mac) feel free to let me know- would love to come watch.
Thanks again.
Jarod

I have no problem calling a foul or violation outside my PCA, if I pause for a second and believe my partner must have been straightlined to miss it. I also have no problem with my partner doing the same, and I make that clear during pre-game.

However, when it comes to throw-ins, if I'm not administering, I'm disengaging from that endline/sideline, and focusing in-bounds. Some things are best to be trusted to your partner.

[QUOTE=RichMSN;808102]After the game, I went in the locker room, changed clothes quickly without showering, and left without saying a word. I was as close to the edge as I've ever been before or since.

Tons of respect for you. This is the professional way to deal with this. You cannot change what happened on the court, and you are not going to change your partner's mind or opinion.

I found that when someone does something like this, usually they know, and there is no benefit to discussing it in the locker room after the game. Many times I have had the 3rd guy ask, "Why didn't you say anything?" My response is always, "I didn't have to. We all know what happened, and he knows he screwed it up. No need to pour salt in a wound."

Making your opinion known once is fine, especially if the offender brings it up himself in the locker room after the game. Starting an argument or getting angry for more than a second or two is pointless, especially if you have no real control, and you are clearly correct.

Nobody here will like this, but the bottom line is, if you are right, you can do anything you want. If you are right, even if you run your partner over, you are still right. Top officials never want to be in those situations, and they are exceptionally rare, but if they have the ability and constitution to make those calls and be 100% correct, that makes them great. Perhaps unpopular for a period of time, but great. The flip side is, the risks in doing so are enormous, and we all beileve in virtually every call we make--until we see the film.