Not really. That is so blatantly bad that he cannot recover. It would be like Costas interviewing Sandusky.

-1 :mad:

IMO, this isn't a crew call and this board is the only place I have ever heard of doing this - actually this thread is the only place. I cannot honestly count every mistake one of my partners may have made in a particular game because I have my own responsibilities that I'm worried about. In the spirit of teamwork, we all have jobs to do and if someone doesn't do their job we look bad as a whole. But that doesn't mean I'm going to try to call everything or make sure everything is right.

Someone mentioned a crew being suspended for a game last year. Just to show how things go the opposite way, the assignor for the crew that did Xavier/Cincinnati backed that crew up which I think we all agree isn't right. I know one of the officials on that game and I think he may have been involved in the game last year too!

Years ago (not sure if I ever posted this), I had a bad experience and didn't handle it as well as Rich.

I was working a military tournament on a base that one of my friends assigned. I'm at the L, I'm watching off ball and two players go down. I was watching them the entire time and call the first foul. To my amazement, another official (I don't remember if he was the T or C) comes in and says the player that I thought got fouled committed the foul. He came in telling me all of this and he didn't have a whistle on the play. This was about 12+ years ago so I wasn't the kindler and gentler Tom you see before you. :D I told him, "Well if you think that is what happened, go report it". I didn't think in a million years, he would go report the foul since he didn't even have a whistle on the play, but to my utter shock he did. To say I was upset is a huge understatement. I told my friend, who assigned the game and was on the sideline, that we were going to have a problem at halftime. Halftime comes and the locker room explodes as soon as we get in there. I told the guy assigning the game that he was going to have to make a decision: either I was going to finish the game or this other guy was going to finish the game. I know I put him in a bad position and it was a decision I had to make for him...I was showering before the second half of that game started. Not my proudest moment and something it took a while for me to live down. Fortunately, this didn't happen during a high school game.

To make the situation worse, the team that (I think) got fouled was from a base I used to be stationed at...all of them were my friends. They were asking me later what happened on that play. Disclaimer: even though they are my friends, they never got a break from me. Not the way I roll at all.

Also (this is great), I was trying to "court" the other official's daughter at the time; she was a cutie. That stopped abruptly after this incident, not my decision. The other official was in our association and his career flamed out shortly after this incident. It had nothing to do with me and everything to do with his (in) ability to call games.

And He Gets the Girl!
 

Note to all single officials: Good rule of thumb in a case like this is to settle for a blarge, and keep the girl.

WOW! Not something to be proud of....a poor example of trust within a crew. At any time, let alone in a close game with 3 seconds left.

Funny! Trust me, I'm living happily ever after. :D

Excellent, Another All IAABO Connecticut Forum Member ...
 

Now we have at least two officials on the Forum tied at the very top of the high school varsity pay scale. Rule11, and I, are part of the 1%. All the rest of the unwashed officials on the Forum are part of the 99%.

Man. I hope that Mark Padgett doesn't offer his opinion of what Rule 11 is. We probably don't want to know.

If I call a violation outside of my primary, I made a mistake.

If I'm calling a foul outside of my primary, I'm going to try to be late and needed. By needed, I mean the game could degenerate quickly if it goes uncalled.

Agreed...if it is an "OH MY GOD!!" call, then go in there and make the call.

5 second throw-in violation does not fit that criteria.

I will put it this way. I am a Back Judge in football. If I call a Roughing the Passer penalty I really need to hang up my whistle and stripped shirt. The other situation you are talking about as far as I remember was not the same as this situation.

And like I used to hear this as a kid, "You can be right and dead at the same time." I think I would have to eat that mistake and let my partner do his job.

Peace

The risks are too great. No way I'm even going to have a count. Anyone who makes this call, even if it was right, is driving a bus. You've told everyone who knows anything at all about basketball that you think your partner isn't ready for this game. You've also told them that you, in fact, are the one over his head.

So lets say you are NOT the trail here and see this

Duke travel. How many steps? I count 12! - YouTube

You would just say oh well, I'll let it go? I know I would not. I would call it and if my partner tries to say a peep that I shouldn't have I would tell him to tighten up and do his f'ing job. Because this is pretty obvious.

Why are you looking at the ball? In 3-person, in a closely guarded situation like this, the C is looking at competitive matchups on his side of the floor and the L is looking in the paint. The *only* official that should see this is the T.

Any "get" of this by either of the other two officials, here, is ball watching.

Right, we NEVER see out of our primary. Ever! I forgot.

OK, do me a favor. Watch the video again. Tell me who's going to see this travel on the court and THEN call it in front of the trail who's standing right there.

I'm the L, I'm looking in the paint. I'm the T, that's WAY over on the other side of the court and I'm not looking there.

I'm not saying that there aren't places where an official that's further away isn't going to get a travel (in the post is a great example), but this isn't it.

Lets say position isnt an issue, you see this and you pass?

There are some travels you get in your secondary, so I'll make that correction. There's still no way in hell I'm having a whistle on a five second violation outside of my primary.

If it's in a secondary area, sure, I'll get it. For example, if I'm the T and this is in the L's primary, I'll assume he's blocked from seeing the feet or concentrating on contact up high.

But if I'm 50 feet away and my partner is about 8, I'm going to let him call it or not call it (unless there's a good reason he'd miss it). It's bad for the crew to miss calls, but it can be just as bad (if not worse) to get one that throws a partner under the bus.

This is the part that some seem unable to grasp.

Most calls where a partner helps, I'm going to say "thank you." But there are some that do nothing but throw me under the bus and the person jumping in should know better. Exhibit 1 - the video in the OP.

If you make a judgment call so far out of your area as in your BJ example, you're right...I agree.

What I'm talking about is not about judgment....it is about absolutes. The only judgement in this case is whether the player has it at their disposal or not....and that is a judgment call only when a player may be delaying the throwin by not picking up the ball or taking it out of bounds.

However, when the player has the ball OOB and is in a position to make a throwin, there is no judgment to it....by rule, the count should be on. If 8, 9 or more seconds transpire after that point, someone better have something.

When the final buzzer sounds and you're asked about the play by your assignor, I don't want to be left with saying I knew it should have been called but did nothing and point the finger at my partner.

And the play I referred to was indeed different, but it was a player where the crew was held responsible for what was the responsibility of one official.

Agree....the new lead in the OP was absolutely 100% wrong. He would have been wrong even if he were the new trail.

But the continuing discussion was not about the sit. in the OP. It was a what-if....what if the time was much, much more and not just barely 5 seconds since the ball fell through the basket...what if the clock ran down 10+ seconds (or maybe 20+ seconds) with the thrower standing OOB with the ball. The question was about what point should/will another official step in and either make the call or simply stop the clock to address the unusual delay? Are you saying there is no point at all? To the extreme just to illustrate the point, would you let it go 5 minutes without stepping in?

If a player is clearly standing OOB with the ball for a throwin for 10 seconds with no call from your partner, your partner has already told everyone they've spaced out. Not stopping it at some point tells them you have too. How long would you stand by and act like you had no idea with everyone in the gym knowing it was grossly wrong?

It's a hypothetical that has little chance of happening and illustrates well the slippery slope we can be on. Where's the threshold -- 5 seconds? 7 seconds? How about the travel in the Duke video just posted?

Playing along -- I would probably stop the game and have a conversation with my partner. But it would be a long time after 5 seconds.

Agreed.

My first instinct, after 12-15 seconds or so, would be to look down at the end line to see if my partner is okay. If so, I'd give it another five seconds or so before blowing the whistle and checking with him.

I was talking about generalities...counts on inbounds plays would not even enter the discussion, IMO.

I was at a college tryout camp this summer when the T and C were the only two people in the gym not to see a travel about three steps over the division line. When the clinician brought us together, I said I had seen it from the lead, but there was no way I would ever call that...particularly when I am being evaluated.

The clinician agreed it was not usually a good call from that far, but it was so obvious that he felt I should have come in late...but really strong and made the proper call. Even with that advice, I don't think I can do it.

If he felt that stronly about it, he should have made the call! :D

Thank you....And, again, I meant in no way to suggest your partner in the OP was anywhere near right.

The approach that you suggest is what I was getting at....at SOME point, you can't just ignore it and leave it on your partner.

And as for the the Duke video, probably not. It wouldn't be something I'd pick up from Lead. I wouldn't be looking for it and it is not something you can know without looking for it.

An official has too much time on their hands if they are calling something here from the Trail. There are players that could be trying to get free and move around the court. If he/she is counting and has the time to make that call, they are certainly not doing their job which is required to watch a lot of players certainly in two person and the case in three person as well. If that kind of issue takes place than an official that is the new trail should not be working those kinds of games if they cannot get those plays right. We have people get banned for much lesser things in games, why would we not do the same here? We cannot take it upon ourselves to make everything right in the world because we think a partner screwed up.

I would not be telling an assignor I knew something I am not watching for. I would not be in this situation. I had a situation take place on a 3 point shot where the ball went in on a off-ball foul and my partner counted the basket. The only information I could give is that the ball went in. I could not tell the assignor definitively that the foul took place before or after the ball was released (which was the assignor's contention) and certainly could only give very little help. Why? I was watching other players and could not tell you what was happening on the other side of the court. I probably got banned from that league and honestly I am OK with that. The assignor did not know the rule and his handling of the situation was evidence of what I felt about him.


Well as I said, you can be dead and right at the same time. I am not taking my responsibility for my partner that has a judgment call in a situation like this. I might help out when appropriate, but not make a call for him/her that they have all the way. If they cannot get that right they should not be there.

Peace

JRut...you hit it on the head. He panicked, he didn't trust his partner, and then it sounds like he "big timed" him.

Sorry Rich...but, I gotta see this "trainwreck".

How would you search it on YouTube?

It's embedded on the first post of the thread.

Thanks Rich..."YouTube" is blocked here at work...so I got on my phone and brought it up.

IMO...you handled that beautifully. I only watched it once. I told myself to watch it and do what I would normally do as if I was the "new trail".

I had a 4 count...your partner was nuts.

I was between 3 and 4. I used a stopwatch and started it when I thought the ball was at the disposal -- I had 3.5 seconds both times I ran it.

As a friend of mine says, "It is what it is." Hard to believe that was over 2 years ago, though.

And have you worked with that particular partner since that incident? If so, how did it go????