Correctable error quandry

[BayStateRef]

A question from the NCAA-W rules test is giving me problems applying it to a correctable error situation in a high school game (NFHS rules) that a buddy told me about. First the NCAA situation:

Q. Team A is not yet in the bonus when A2 is erroneously awarded a one-and-one. Both free throws are successful. Team B inbounds the ball and dribbles to midcourt and calls a timeout. During this timeout, the officials discover that A2 was awarded unmerited free throws. What is the result?

A. A2's free throws are canceled. Play is resumed with a throw-in to Team B at midcourt. (4-12-5)

The NCAA rule for correctable errors is identical in all meaningful ways to the NFHS rule.

I am having a hard time grasping this answer. Team A shot unmerited free throws and when the error is discovered, the points come off the board and the ball goes to Team B, which had the ball when the error was discovered. Wow. I don't see why Team A does not get the ball back for its rightful spot throw-in.

Now...the situation my buddy described. A1 releases a 3-point try, which is successful. While the ball is in the air, B3 is called for a common foul against A3 under the basket. Team A is in the bonus. The officials make a mistake and allow A1 to shoot the free throws and he makes them both. As Team B is bringing the ball up the court, the table sounds the horn and the referee stops play. The scorer tells the ref that A1 just made a 5-point play and the ref now realizes the error.

What is the correct procedure?

I know you cancel the free throws because they were made by the wrong player and it is within the correctable time frame. Do you then let the correct player shoot the bonus free throws with no one on the lane and then give Team B the ball at the POI?

Or do you just wipe out the the free throws and give the ball back to Team B (no free throws to Team A) since it had the ball when play was stopped?

If the first, then how do you explain the NCAA ruling in what seems to be a similar situation?

[bob jenkins]

The ruling is correct. "Correcttable error" is not equivalent to "REDO". Fix it, the pick up where you left off.

In the first case, "fix it" means cancel FTs in error.

In the second case, it means "let the right person shoot the FTs".

[Camron Rust]

There is some onus on A to not take unmerited FTs. By taking them, they give up the right to a throwin once the FTs are taken and play has resumed even if the FTs subsequently get canceled.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

There is some onus on A to not take unmerited FTs. By taking them, they give up the right to a throwin once the FTs are taken and play has resumed even if the FTs get canceled.

By that reasoning, there is even more onus on A1 not to take the free throws since he was not fouled. But his team is not "punished" the way it is in the first scenario. And if it is the home table that gave the officials the bad information...and the visitors lose both the free throws and the ball?

Either way, the rules don't speak to "onus."

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

By that reasoning, there is even more onus on A1 not to take the free throws since he was not fouled. But his team is not "punished" the way it is in the first scenario. And if it is the home table that gave the officials the bad information...and the visitors lose both the free throws and the ball?

Either way, the rules don't speak to "onus."

A1 taking FTs due A3 can be penalized with a T if it is deem to be deliberate....certainly an equitable punishment. No matter which CE scenario you come up with, the team that seems to be getting an unfair advantage through the error risk ending up worse off than if they had spoken up and made sure it was right to start with.

Maybe they don't mention "onus' in the rules but there is a reason behind most rules. They're usually not created in a vacuum.

[Toren]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

A1 taking FTs due A3 can be penalized with a T if it is deem to be deliberate....certainly an equitable punishment. No matter which CE scenario you come up with, the team that seems to be getting an unfair advantage through the error risk ending up worse off than if they had spoken up and made sure it was right to start with.

Maybe they don't mention "onus' in the rules but there is a reason behind most rules. They're usually not created in a vacuum.

Correctable errors are errors caused by officials. These are our errors. If A1 is told to take some free throws, how many of us would be open to him telling us "my teammate was the one fouled"? So there is no onus on the player to inform us of our mistake.

It is our job, and that's why we get paid handsomely, to know who fouled, who got fouled, what time is on the clock, if we are shooting bonus free throws, if we are in the double bonus, etc etc.

If you called a Technical on a player for deliberately taking free throws that an official gave to him, then you are just compounding the issue. It is our mistake to begin with, fix it, move on.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

A question from the NCAA-W rules test is giving me problems applying it to a correctable error situation in a high school game (NFHS rules) that a buddy told me about. First the NCAA situation:

Q. Team A is not yet in the bonus when A2 is erroneously awarded a one-and-one. Both free throws are successful. Team B inbounds the ball and dribbles to midcourt and calls a timeout. During this timeout, the officials discover that A2 was awarded unmerited free throws. What is the result?

A. A2's free throws are canceled. Play is resumed with a throw-in to Team B at midcourt. (4-12-5)

The NCAA rule for correctable errors is identical in all meaningful ways to the NFHS rule.

I am having a hard time grasping this answer. Team A shot unmerited free throws and when the error is discovered, the points come off the board and the ball goes to Team B, which had the ball when the error was discovered. Wow. I don't see why Team A does not get the ball back for its rightful spot throw-in.

Team A doesn't get the ball back because there's been a change of possession. It's an error. Not everything can be equitable when an error is corrected.

Now...the situation my buddy described. A1 releases a 3-point try, which is successful. While the ball is in the air, B3 is called for a common foul against A3 under the basket. Team A is in the bonus. The officials make a mistake and allow A1 to shoot the free throws and he makes them both. As Team B is bringing the ball up the court, the table sounds the horn and the referee stops play. The scorer tells the ref that A1 just made a 5-point play and the ref now realizes the error.

What is the correct procedure?

I know you cancel the free throws because they were made by the wrong player and it is within the correctable time frame. Do you then let the correct player shoot the bonus free throws with no one on the lane and then give Team B the ball at the POI?

Or do you just wipe out the the free throws and give the ball back to Team B (no free throws to Team A) since it had the ball when play was stopped?

You allow the correct shooter to shoot his FT(s). Then give the ball back to B at POI.

If the first, then how do you explain the NCAA ruling in what seems to be a similar situation?

The situations are NOT the same.
One is shooting unmerited FTs.
The other is the wrong shooter.
Two different items, tow different issues.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Toren

Correctable errors are errors caused by officials. These are our errors.

Some of them are caused by officials. Usually, they're caused by table officials. We can only act on the information given.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Toren

Correctable errors are errors caused by officials. These are our errors. If A1 is told to take some free throws, how many of us would be open to him telling us "my teammate was the one fouled"? So there is no onus on the player to inform us of our mistake.

It is our job, and that's why we get paid handsomely, to know who fouled, who got fouled, what time is on the clock, if we are shooting bonus free throws, if we are in the double bonus, etc etc.

If you called a Technical on a player for deliberately taking free throws that an official gave to him, then you are just compounding the issue. It is our mistake to begin with, fix it, move on.

Usually, CE's are not caused by the officials. They're caused by the scorekeeper providing the official incorrect information or not providing information...they indicated 6 fouls only to realize it was 7 (or 9 vs 10). Those the the most common CE's. The ramifications of the CE are such that each team risks losing something if it is not done right to start with. It is beneficial to the teams to keep their own stats so they can point out the discrepancy when it happens before the CE occurs.

The wrong shooter situation, which is probably the rarest CE situation, is usually either through confusion when more than one player may have been fouled or after a timeout when a team may try to switch shooters hoping the officials didn't notice (but they act like it was confusion). I've never called the T, I've told the right shooter to get to the line before we get to the point of having to issue the T.

[Toren]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The wrong shooter situation, which is probably the rarest CE situation, is usually either through confusion when more than one player may have been fouled or after a timeout when a team may try to switch shooters hoping the officials didn't notice (but they act like it was confusion). I've never called the T, I've told the right shooter to get to the line before we get to the point of having to issue the T.

This situation can be prevented 100% of the time. Whenever the officials don't know or lost concentration or whatever, is when we screw it up. If we communicate who fouled and who should be shooting to our partners, then we have no confusion.

This is a much different scenario then a team trying to deliberately switch the shooter.

[Toren]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Some of them are caused by officials. Usually, they're caused by table officials. We can only act on the information given.

I don't agree, in what situation would a table official be completely responsible?

We didn't shoot the 1 and 1 because the score board only had 6 fouls listed...why didn't we notice when foul #4 wasn't added to the board? That's our error

We shot the 1 and 1 when there was only 6 team fouls but the board is showing 7 team fouls...why didn't we notice that when foul #3 was reported, it jumped to foul #5.

In all correctable errors, the responsibility is ours. I will not pardon myself. I have been lucky enough to not have to deal with a correctable error yet, but when it happens I will be looking long and hard at tape to figure out where I lost concentration.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Toren

I don't agree, in what situation would a table official be completely responsible?

We didn't shoot the 1 and 1 because the score board only had 6 fouls listed...why didn't we notice when foul #4 wasn't added to the board? That's our error

We shot the 1 and 1 when there was only 6 team fouls but the board is showing 7 team fouls...why didn't we notice that when foul #3 was reported, it jumped to foul #5.

In all correctable errors, the responsibility is ours. I will not pardon myself. I have been lucky enough to not have to deal with a correctable error yet, but when it happens I will be looking long and hard at tape to figure out where I lost concentration.

Why didn't we notice? Because the board doesn't display foul counts. Not every board is capable.

Also, the "official" record is the scorebook. I don't look to see if they record everything right. If the board seems to have the right numbers based on your observation but the book has something different, what are you going to do? Take the official record or the unofficial record? If you can't identify the missing/extra foul for the scorebook, you have to take the book as it is, the board means nothing.

If you can reliably count the team and player fouls on both teams for both halves, every single game, great. But, I've got more interesting things to do than the scorekeeper's job. And even if you can, you might find your attention would be better applied elsewhere.

[Toren]

What I have said is correctable errors are caused by officials. I have also said they are 100% preventable.

I have also said I will not pardon myself when my first one happens. I might be able to justify it in a similar manner, saying something to myself like "well the board didn't have fouls, so how could I have prevented it...I guess I couldn't have." Or "that stupid official scorekeeper couldn't keep track of fouls, no way I could have prevented his stupidity."

But me personally I won't do that, I will hold myself responsible for not having prevented it.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Toren

But me personally I won't do that, I will hold myself responsible for not having prevented it.

That's fine, go right ahead. But you used the word "officials," which includes ALL of us.

"Is that the 10th team foul?"
"No, it's still 1&1."
"Are you sure?"
"Yes."
"Is that what you have, too?"
"Yes sir."

I sure would like to know what the hell I'm supposed to do in that situation. Go over and count the fouls myself every time we have have one, I guess.

When a scorer tells me it's 1&1 and then later tells me it should have been 2, that's the SCORER'S error, not mine. It's not really a big deal but let's get the facts straight. And nothing you can say will change that.

Feel free to take credit for that error if you want to but don't throw the rest of us in there, too.

[Loudwhistle2]

Originally Posted by Toren

What I have said is correctable errors are caused by officials. I have also said they are 100% preventable.

I have also said I will not pardon myself when my first one happens. I might be able to justify it in a similar manner, saying something to myself like "well the board didn't have fouls, so how could I have prevented it...I guess I couldn't have." Or "that stupid official scorekeeper couldn't keep track of fouls, no way I could have prevented his stupidity."

But me personally I won't do that, I will hold myself responsible for not having prevented it.

I think you're full of beans! Refs have plenty to do during the game and the last thing I'm going to do is try and keep track of the score keeper's stats. Most of the CE situations that I've been around for were the score keepers fault. I've had 2 CE's this year and both were the scorekeepers fault.