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-   -   Illegal Substitute? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/84472-illegal-substitute.html)

Adam Mon Dec 19, 2011 02:29am
I probably would have retorted that jacking up the rules like that is even worse.

BillyMac Mon Dec 19, 2011 07:02am
Just My Opinion ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 805948)
The officials have knowledge that a foul was committed by #15 and #15 is not in the book then #15 will entered in the book and a 'T' will be assessed.
Only, if, and when, #15 is, or becomes, one of the five players participating in the game. If #15 is on the bench at the time of discovery, no name will be added to the book. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game.

26 Year Gap Mon Dec 19, 2011 07:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 (Post 806001)
This is one of my pet peeves when dealing with other officials. Guys get so hung up on this stuff about "The book isn't ready yet". Around here, the vast majority of visiting teams just supply their scorebook to the scorer (Who has the home book at the table), and the scorer copies the visitor's roster from their scorebook into the main book. If the scorer hasn't done that yet, I just make sure the number of visiting players match up with how many players they have listed in their book, and sign both books and get it over with. I'm not going to stand there and watch the scorer copy 14 players into the home book.

That reminds me that I had a "veteran" partner last year who gave a T to a team in a tournament who had supplied their roster to the scorer before the game. The scorer had left one player off (Not sure which one of us missed this while signing the book). When the player entered the game, the team in question showed us that the player was on the roster they supplied, and the scorer agreed that he/she had messed up, but my partner was adamant that the T should be given. I tried to tell him that it is a scorer's error, but he was having none of it. The better part was that when the other team's coach started to have one of his bench players shoot the technical foul shots, my partner told him that only the five players on the court can shoot free throws for a technical. I tried to reason with him on both things, but he wouldn't even huddle with me to discuss it. He told me afterwards that he didn't want to get together because us talking makes it look like we don't know what we're doing. :rolleyes:
And you said, "What's this 'we' stuff?"

JugglingReferee Mon Dec 19, 2011 08:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 805808)
This problem about not having enough time to enter the roster after the JV is so easily solved...........

Tell the school to buy a second scorebook! Scorebooks are cheap and they'll use them anyways. They can buy 1 every year, or 2 every two years.

Most teams are present well before 10 minutes before their tip-off time. They can likely fill out the scoresheet 30 minutes before tip-off!

Problem solved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 805836)
It can alsow be solved by having officials read the rules -- the book is not required to be completed 10-minutes before tip-off.
I never said it had to be. ;)

All I mentioned was "a problem".


Everything else about basketball is prepared ahead of time. Why not the scorebook as well?

During the warm-ups, instead of writing players' names, the coaches could be actually be... coaching!

Raymond Mon Dec 19, 2011 08:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 806021)
Only, if, and when, #15 is, or becomes, one of the five players participating in the game. If #15 is on the bench at the time of discovery, no name will be added to the book. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game.
Nope. #15 committed a foul. My crew and I have definite knowledge that #15 committed a foul and we want that foul properly recorded in the book. Would do the same if #15 scored and the crew and/or scorer had definite knowledge that #15 scored a point, then #15 is going in the book and a T is being administered.

The T is for adding a name to or changing a number in the book. If #15 did something that needs to be recorded in the book then there is going to be a T administered.

bob jenkins Mon Dec 19, 2011 08:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 806021)
In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game.
Reference, please.

Scrapper1 Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 806042)
Nope. #15 committed a foul. My crew and I have definite knowledge that #15 committed a foul and we want that foul properly recorded in the book. Would do the same if #15 scored and the crew and/or scorer had definite knowledge that #15 scored a point, then #15 is going in the book and a T is being administered.
FWIW, I agree with this.

Adam Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:37pm
Just curious (and perhaps stirring the pot a bit) about something.
I agree with scrapper and BNR, but in those states where participation is counted towards a season maximum, doesn't a player need to be added to the book regardless of whether they commit a foul or score a point?

bob jenkins Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 806085)
Just curious (and perhaps stirring the pot a bit) about something.
I agree with scrapper and BNR, but in those states where participation is counted towards a season maximum, doesn't a player need to be added to the book regardless of whether they commit a foul or score a point?
IMO, only if the state has specifically said so (and, thus, said to ignore the case involved).

Eastshire Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 806085)
Just curious (and perhaps stirring the pot a bit) about something.
I agree with scrapper and BNR, but in those states where participation is counted towards a season maximum, doesn't a player need to be added to the book regardless of whether they commit a foul or score a point?
They would but it takes definite knowledge of them being in the game to cause them to be added. This knowledge comes from them currently being one of the five players or having a foul assessed to them. (I personally don't think scoring is sufficient as the scoring player is formally reported to the table.)

just another ref Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 806088)
They would but it takes definite knowledge of them being in the game to cause them to be added. This knowledge comes from them currently being one of the five players or having a foul assessed to them. (I personally don't think scoring is sufficient as the scoring player is formally reported to the table.)
Where does this assessment of things come from? In other situations, definite knowledge is just that. I saw it. I know it happened. The clock stopped late, etc. Number 15 was in the game. I saw him. I see sweat on him now. That is definite knowledge.

zm1283 Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap (Post 806030)
And you said, "What's this 'we' stuff?"
I wanted to. I got the rule book out after the game and tried showing him, but he made some excuse about "We just interpret it differently" or "You're reading too much into the rule"...just brushing it off so he wouldn't have to admit he was wrong. I just decided to leave well enough alone after that. He has been around for a long time and isn't going to change, especially when some guy in his 20s tells him he's wrong. What I wanted to do was email the assigner and ask him not to give me any more games with a guy who doesn't know the rules....I know better though. It was embarrassing when the coach whose team was shooting the technical FTs knew the rule about all eligible players on the roster being able to shoot. I didn't want to throw my partner under the bus, but I had to acknowledge that the coach was right. I think he knew that it wasn't my fault, so he didn't get upset about it.

On a side note, I have a real problem with officials who don't bother to study and know the rules of the sport they're officiating. After all, it is what you get paid to do. I admit that I don't know everything rule-wise, but I at least make an effort. Some guys try to act like it isn't "cool" to study rules and poke fun at guys like me who can answer most rules questions without the book. What's worse is when officials know rules but ignore them, like stories I have heard locally when officials have a blarge and ignore the rules and go with one call over the other instead of a double foul. Sorry, I'll get off my soap box now.

Raymond Mon Dec 19, 2011 01:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 (Post 806090)
... It was embarrassing when the coach whose team was shooting the technical FTs knew the rule about all eligible players on the roster being able to shoot. I didn't want to throw my partner under the bus, but I had to acknowledge that the coach was right. I think he knew that it wasn't my fault, so he didn't get upset about it.
...
This is a situation where I would tell my partner that I don't agree and he needs to explain his ruling to the coach and I would then take the ball over to administer the free throws.

Any further questions from the coach to me on the subject would be answered with an "I hear you coach".

I would not throw my partner under the bus but I would not allow myself to be used as a buffer either.

Adam Mon Dec 19, 2011 01:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 806087)
IMO, only if the state has specifically said so (and, thus, said to ignore the case involved).
Which case?

bob jenkins Mon Dec 19, 2011 01:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 806101)
Which case?
Maybe it was an interp. NEvada has cited it in one of the recent threads on this issue.


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