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-   -   Charge, After Charge, After Charge (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/84470-charge-after-charge-after-charge.html)

just another ref Fri Dec 16, 2011 04:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805443)
Like I said, I'll try to look at them that way. I just don't like it when (to me anyway) it looks like such a disadvantage to offense and stops the game. I don't think the game was meant to be played that way...but that's just me. I'll keep an open mind about it.

The objective of the defense is to put the offense at a disadvantage.:)

letemplay Fri Dec 16, 2011 04:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 805445)
How can an offensive player be put at a disadvantage when they control where they are going?

Peace

When they are dribbling the ball and a guy comes in at the last second and throws themselves in front where no player, even with extraordinary skills, could stop or change direction.

letemplay Fri Dec 16, 2011 04:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 805446)
The objective of the defense is to put the offense at a disadvantage.:)

This is true of course...and visa versa

JRutledge Fri Dec 16, 2011 04:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805448)
When they are dribbling the ball and a guy comes in at the last second and throws themselves in front where no player, even with extraordinary skills, could stop or change direction.

I thought the purpose of the defense was to get in the way of the offense and stop them from movement?

Peace

Camron Rust Fri Dec 16, 2011 04:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805448)
When they are dribbling the ball and a guy comes in at the last second and throws themselves in front where no player, even with extraordinary skills, could stop or change direction.

If they were paying attention, they'd see the defender coming before the defender got to that spot. Often they do see the defender approaching and try to beat them....sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. But, they do have the choice. It is not like the defender materialized out of thin air.

letemplay Fri Dec 16, 2011 04:39pm

Maybe the rule should be rewritten
 
to include defenders materializing out of thin air... and toe taps:D I'll have to continue this discussion later...gotta ball game to get to..thanks for the comments!

MD Longhorn Fri Dec 16, 2011 05:17pm

I believe I see more officials incorrectly calling it the way you sound like you want it to be called. LGP is really a lot easier than a lot of officials make it out to be. You've acknowledged that there's no "time" involved. You sound as though you think the defenders are just materializing from thin air and it's not fair to the offense. To the contrary - the offensive player can see the defender too - and if the defender can get to a spot before he can, he'd best not go there.

ga314ref Fri Dec 16, 2011 09:13pm

I've tried to...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805416)
He gets his foot in front, but because the dribbler is of course, leaning forward, there is torso contact. Sometimes the offensive player even puts his off arm up as a reaction to the crash and it looks like a forearm hitting the defender. I guess this is a judgment play all the way, like many others during the game's course, but I'd like to think the rules makers allow that the defender get there. I think what I'm having trouble with is hearing many on here say that is ONCE LGP is obtained it's not lost..is that what some are saying? Doesn't the offensive player's established path play a part in determining if lgp has been reached?

...visualize your play. One thing to remember is if the offensive player get his head and shoulders past the defender, the greater responsibility for the contact is then on the defender, so the offensive player, if he can "beat" the defender gains an advantage.

Also, Rut (if I can call him that) is correct: if the official referees the defense, these are easier calls to make.

Raymond Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805448)
When they are dribbling the ball and a guy comes in at the last second and throws themselves in front where no player, even with extraordinary skills, could stop or change direction.

Well, then the defensive player should get credit for having extraordinary skill, don't you thiink?

JRutledge Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ga314ref (Post 805493)
Also, Rut (if I can call him that)

I have been called that all my life. No big deal. :)

Peace

BillyMac Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:49pm

Because He's Always In One ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ga314ref (Post 805493)
Rut (if I can call him that) is correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 805528)
I have been called that all my life.

In a rut (Idiom): In a settled or established habit or course of action, especially a boring one.

Rob1968 Sun Dec 18, 2011 01:22pm

Semantics and practical application
 
I remember, several years ago, when the Fed changed the word "establish" to "obtain" in 4-23, because "establish" seemed to denote a process that could take an amount of time, in a guard trying to play defense against a ball-handler. Some thought that the defender was at a disadvantage, because contact with the ball-handler could come at different moments during the process.
So, as JRut and others have said, the moment of LGP being obtained allows us to make judgements on subsequent contact in a more uniform manner.
Two weeks ago, with a very good partner, we had seven PC calls in the first half, on team A, and two on team B. When the A coach commented on that fact, as we passed, at half time, I told him he must be pleased that his team was playing so aggressively. He didn't actually dispute whether the calls were correct. (His team was leading by double digits.)


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