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Charge, After Charge, After Charge
In a boys game last night, I personally had 7 PC fouls, plus 2 team-control's after a pass off. My partners together had 6 PC fouls and we only had 1 block on a crash.
Total offensive foul count = 15 for the Boys game. Needless to say it was the most I have ever had, or seen, in a game. |
RA coming to a HS near you by 2017... if this 2012 thing doesnt pop off :rolleyes:
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Good defense, poor offense or a combination of both?
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Man, maybe it's just me improving, but I've already called probably 15 PC fouls this year. I think I'm doing a better job of seeing how the defense got there.
Someone told me something that a former NBA ref told him: 90% of all block/charge contact plays should be offensive fouls. Agree or disagree? |
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Obviously I agree as I call a lot of PC fouls long before I ever heard that comment from a person that is in my Association's Hall of Fame and is a former NBA Official. Then again I think we penalize defense too much for things they do not do illegally. It really drives me crazy when people justify fouls on the defense because they lean back too far or they are not vertical. Peace |
I think I call more PC fouls than most partners I have. It seems like a lot of guys penalize the defense at times simply because the contact looks bad.
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Not sure I agree with JRut
I believe I see too many fouls on the offense, when defense gets there too late (imo), toe taps in front of an offensive player and takes it in the chest. I believe it hurts the game of basketball. I'm aware many will disagree, but the offensive player should have a reasonable chance to change direction, and I don't see that happening on some of these calls. You can debate just exactly what is "reasonable".
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Peace |
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The offensive player should be allowed to change direction -- are you saying that the defensive player shouldn't be allowed to do so as well in order to play defense? I'm with the rest of the officials here -- I call a lot of player control fouls. |
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If you're giving your interpretation of "what it IS" -- well, you're wrong. Almost all of what you say is contrary to the current rules. |
IDK, the defense is illegal most times in my games.
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The offensive player has to be aware of the defenders in the vicinity and the fact that they are going to try to stop the offensive player. They have to be ready to have their path blocked at any time.
The player with the ball is the one with the most choices and control in the game. That is why the rules on legally defending such a player require no time/distance where all other situations do. |
Yes, I know I'm in the minority
and that my position would elicit several responses to the contrary while I was away from my computer on lunch break. I know partly what I say is NOT supported by rule or by POE the last several years. I'm also not saying I'm going to ignore that and make calls based on how I feel. It is hard for me to define my opinion with a mere keyboard and those responding should not take me as literal as I sounded. I don't believe every crash is the fault of the offense. I wish I could somehow convert my desktop to a on court clinic/diagram to explain what plays I'm describing, but since I can't I'll do the best I can this way: Let's say player A1 has received a pass from top of key in the right side wing/foul line extended area. He stands facing the basket in triple threat position, with the intent to shoot, pass or dribble. A defender B2 comes to guard him and obtains LGP, in his direct path between the spot he's standing in and the basket, some 20' away. Now obviously A1 cannot, for instance, pump fake, and then drive in that direct path to the basket because of B2's position. Suppose he uses that pump fake, or a shoulder fake to his right, then begins a quick take off move to his left on a path that would take him in a fairly similar line to the foul line. He's moving quickly and strongly when B2, reading his direction, now has to change his position to try and get to the spot in front of the offensive player. B2 manages to get along side A1 and quickly throws his foot into his path (the toe tap I refer to) and we have a crash. There's no chance in heck for A1 to change direction, let alone stop, yet he's called for the PC in a lot more plays nowadays then I can remember. I'm aware time and distance are not considered here...maybe I'm saying I think they should be or wish they were. Maybe I'm dating myself, but it doesn't seem that long ago we were telling a coach: "he wasn't there in time". It just seems like it's taking some flow from the game when guys are allowed to throw themselves into an offensive players path, we stop the play, saddle the kid with a foul, go setup for another oob throw, wait on subs, then A does it back to B on the other end and we got no basketball being played. Ok, that's my Friday rant!
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He gets his foot in front, but because the dribbler is of course, leaning forward, there is torso contact. Sometimes the offensive player even puts his off arm up as a reaction to the crash and it looks like a forearm hitting the defender. I guess this is a judgment play all the way, like many others during the game's course, but I'd like to think the rules makers allow that the defender get there. I think what I'm having trouble with is hearing many on here say that is ONCE LGP is obtained it's not lost..is that what some are saying? Doesn't the offensive player's established path play a part in determining if lgp has been reached?
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Sounds like a trip to me. And, if you know exactly what happened on the play, as you describe here, I don't think there is anything keeping you from calling it on the defender. I do get the slight feeling that you may want to let this action go to maintain some mythical flow.
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Peace |
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[QUOTE=JRutledge;805422]When you have obtained LGP, you have to maintain it. It does not mean all contact is legal on the part of the defender. But the defense can get in the way legally of the ball handler and not be responsible for the contact. You still have not explained what a "toe tap" is or what you are trying to say we should agree with. The rules are rather clear about this and actually you do not need torso contact to have a foul on the offensive player either.
Peace[/QUOTE JRut, I've tried to explain what I mean by toe tap as a quick thrust of the defenders foot while trying to get in front of the offensive players path. It seems as though he's only there long enough to tap his toe before contact occurs, yet the offensive player is whistled. That's the best I can do sorry. It just seems the offensive player is put in such a disadvantage here in the close cases/plays I'm seeing. I'm not meaning to totally disagree with everyone, certainly I keep seeing this play on hs and college level being called this way...something about how the game has changed I suppose. |
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And if your suggestion is that at those levels they are calling it the way you suggest, I know at the NCAA level they are getting killed for not calling it the way I suggest on tape. And because of the tape that is being shown, I see more PC fouls being called in the last few years. Peace |
OK Thanks
That makes sense then. I'll try looking at them that way.
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And, if he doesn't have LGP, but the "toe tap" gives him both feet on the floor, facing the offensive player before the offensive player leaves the floor and before contact (even by a millisecond), then the defense has established LGP and the proper call is a charge. |
Like I said, I'll try to look at them that way. I just don't like it when (to me anyway) it looks like such a disadvantage to offense and stops the game. I don't think the game was meant to be played that way...but that's just me. I'll keep an open mind about it.
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Peace |
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Peace |
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Maybe the rule should be rewritten
to include defenders materializing out of thin air... and toe taps:D I'll have to continue this discussion later...gotta ball game to get to..thanks for the comments!
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I believe I see more officials incorrectly calling it the way you sound like you want it to be called. LGP is really a lot easier than a lot of officials make it out to be. You've acknowledged that there's no "time" involved. You sound as though you think the defenders are just materializing from thin air and it's not fair to the offense. To the contrary - the offensive player can see the defender too - and if the defender can get to a spot before he can, he'd best not go there.
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I've tried to...
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Also, Rut (if I can call him that) is correct: if the official referees the defense, these are easier calls to make. |
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Peace |
Because He's Always In One ???
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Semantics and practical application
I remember, several years ago, when the Fed changed the word "establish" to "obtain" in 4-23, because "establish" seemed to denote a process that could take an amount of time, in a guard trying to play defense against a ball-handler. Some thought that the defender was at a disadvantage, because contact with the ball-handler could come at different moments during the process.
So, as JRut and others have said, the moment of LGP being obtained allows us to make judgements on subsequent contact in a more uniform manner. Two weeks ago, with a very good partner, we had seven PC calls in the first half, on team A, and two on team B. When the A coach commented on that fact, as we passed, at half time, I told him he must be pleased that his team was playing so aggressively. He didn't actually dispute whether the calls were correct. (His team was leading by double digits.) |
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