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-   -   Charge, After Charge, After Charge (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/84470-charge-after-charge-after-charge.html)

NCHSAA Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:14am

Charge, After Charge, After Charge
 
In a boys game last night, I personally had 7 PC fouls, plus 2 team-control's after a pass off. My partners together had 6 PC fouls and we only had 1 block on a crash.

Total offensive foul count = 15 for the Boys game.

Needless to say it was the most I have ever had, or seen, in a game.

tref Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:25am

RA coming to a HS near you by 2017... if this 2012 thing doesnt pop off :rolleyes:

NCHSAA Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 805301)
RA coming to a HS near you by 2017... if this 2012 thing doesnt pop off :rolleyes:

You know what, thats a good point. Even under NCAA rules we would have still had 15 though. Not one was in the RA that I can recall, but having 15 I am liable to foget one or two.

Welpe Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:35am

Good defense, poor offense or a combination of both?

stiffler3492 Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:43am

Man, maybe it's just me improving, but I've already called probably 15 PC fouls this year. I think I'm doing a better job of seeing how the defense got there.

Someone told me something that a former NBA ref told him: 90% of all block/charge contact plays should be offensive fouls. Agree or disagree?

tref Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by stiffler3492 (Post 805328)
Someone told me something that a former NBA ref told him: 90% of all block/charge contact plays should be offensive fouls. Agree or disagree?

Either somebody took something out of context or that's why he's a former NBA ref.

JRutledge Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by stiffler3492 (Post 805328)
Man, maybe it's just me improving, but I've already called probably 15 PC fouls this year. I think I'm doing a better job of seeing how the defense got there.

Someone told me something that a former NBA ref told him: 90% of all block/charge contact plays should be offensive fouls. Agree or disagree?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 805331)
Either somebody took something out of context or that's why he's a former NBA ref.

Actually that person really said 9 out of 10 (which is 90% percent) we should call PC fouls and we would be right. :D

Obviously I agree as I call a lot of PC fouls long before I ever heard that comment from a person that is in my Association's Hall of Fame and is a former NBA Official. Then again I think we penalize defense too much for things they do not do illegally. It really drives me crazy when people justify fouls on the defense because they lean back too far or they are not vertical.

Peace

zm1283 Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:10pm

I think I call more PC fouls than most partners I have. It seems like a lot of guys penalize the defense at times simply because the contact looks bad.

Welpe Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 805333)
It really drives me crazy when people justify fouls on the defense because they lean back too far or they are not vertical.

Same here. I got into a...passionate...discussion with a friend of mine over this after I had called a PC foul in game. He said he might not have called it because the defender had flopped because he fell back early to absorb to contact and that he might have even called a block. :eek:

letemplay Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:17pm

Not sure I agree with JRut
 
I believe I see too many fouls on the offense, when defense gets there too late (imo), toe taps in front of an offensive player and takes it in the chest. I believe it hurts the game of basketball. I'm aware many will disagree, but the offensive player should have a reasonable chance to change direction, and I don't see that happening on some of these calls. You can debate just exactly what is "reasonable".

JRutledge Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805338)
I believe I see too many fouls on the offense, when defense gets there too late (imo), toe taps in front of an offensive player and takes it in the chest. I believe it hurts the game of basketball. I'm aware many will disagree, but the offensive player should have a reasonable chance to change direction, and I don't see that happening on some of these calls. You can debate just exactly what is "reasonable".

Here is the problem with your position, it is not supported by any rule. The rules on LGP said there is no time and distance as long as they have established LGP and maintain contact and they can move. If the offense cannot avoid the contact, the defense is not responsible. I will never call it the way you say unless they change the rule. And I doubt they will change the rule in this case. But this is the reason we have a lot of inconsistency in this application. Actually these calls are very easy if you referee the defense. But defense should be allowed to play the game too.

Peace

Rich Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805338)
I believe I see too many fouls on the offense, when defense gets there too late (imo), toe taps in front of an offensive player and takes it in the chest. I believe it hurts the game of basketball. I'm aware many will disagree, but the offensive player should have a reasonable chance to change direction, and I don't see that happening on some of these calls. You can debate just exactly what is "reasonable".

Define "too late." By rule, that means "unable to establish or maintain legal guarding position." I have no clue what you mean "toe taps."

The offensive player should be allowed to change direction -- are you saying that the defensive player shouldn't be allowed to do so as well in order to play defense?

I'm with the rest of the officials here -- I call a lot of player control fouls.

bob jenkins Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805338)
I believe I see too many fouls on the offense, when defense gets there too late (imo), toe taps in front of an offensive player and takes it in the chest. I believe it hurts the game of basketball. I'm aware many will disagree, but the offensive player should have a reasonable chance to change direction, and I don't see that happening on some of these calls. You can debate just exactly what is "reasonable".

If you're saying "what it SHOULD BE" -- well, you're entitled to your opinion.

If you're giving your interpretation of "what it IS" -- well, you're wrong. Almost all of what you say is contrary to the current rules.

tref Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:51pm

IDK, the defense is illegal most times in my games.

Adam Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805338)
I believe I see too many fouls on the offense, when defense gets there too late (imo), toe taps in front of an offensive player and takes it in the chest. I believe it hurts the game of basketball. I'm aware many will disagree, but the offensive player should have a reasonable chance to change direction, and I don't see that happening on some of these calls. You can debate just exactly what is "reasonable".

How do you define "too late" and what do you mean by "toe taps?" It's pretty tough to take it in the torso if the defender gets there too late.

NCHSAA Fri Dec 16, 2011 01:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 805327)
Good defense, poor offense or a combination of both?

Pretty good defense to take this many, but the coach also teaches his players to take charges and to not give up their position.

Camron Rust Fri Dec 16, 2011 01:56pm

The offensive player has to be aware of the defenders in the vicinity and the fact that they are going to try to stop the offensive player. They have to be ready to have their path blocked at any time.

The player with the ball is the one with the most choices and control in the game. That is why the rules on legally defending such a player require no time/distance where all other situations do.

letemplay Fri Dec 16, 2011 02:40pm

Yes, I know I'm in the minority
 
and that my position would elicit several responses to the contrary while I was away from my computer on lunch break. I know partly what I say is NOT supported by rule or by POE the last several years. I'm also not saying I'm going to ignore that and make calls based on how I feel. It is hard for me to define my opinion with a mere keyboard and those responding should not take me as literal as I sounded. I don't believe every crash is the fault of the offense. I wish I could somehow convert my desktop to a on court clinic/diagram to explain what plays I'm describing, but since I can't I'll do the best I can this way: Let's say player A1 has received a pass from top of key in the right side wing/foul line extended area. He stands facing the basket in triple threat position, with the intent to shoot, pass or dribble. A defender B2 comes to guard him and obtains LGP, in his direct path between the spot he's standing in and the basket, some 20' away. Now obviously A1 cannot, for instance, pump fake, and then drive in that direct path to the basket because of B2's position. Suppose he uses that pump fake, or a shoulder fake to his right, then begins a quick take off move to his left on a path that would take him in a fairly similar line to the foul line. He's moving quickly and strongly when B2, reading his direction, now has to change his position to try and get to the spot in front of the offensive player. B2 manages to get along side A1 and quickly throws his foot into his path (the toe tap I refer to) and we have a crash. There's no chance in heck for A1 to change direction, let alone stop, yet he's called for the PC in a lot more plays nowadays then I can remember. I'm aware time and distance are not considered here...maybe I'm saying I think they should be or wish they were. Maybe I'm dating myself, but it doesn't seem that long ago we were telling a coach: "he wasn't there in time". It just seems like it's taking some flow from the game when guys are allowed to throw themselves into an offensive players path, we stop the play, saddle the kid with a foul, go setup for another oob throw, wait on subs, then A does it back to B on the other end and we got no basketball being played. Ok, that's my Friday rant!

Raymond Fri Dec 16, 2011 02:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805411)
... He's moving quickly and strongly when B2, reading his direction, now has to change his position to try and get to the spot in front of the offensive player. B2 manages to get along side A1 and quickly throws his foot into his path (the toe tap I refer to) and we have a crash...

What you describe sounds like a trip. I can't see a crash if all that B2 got in A1's path was a foot.

letemplay Fri Dec 16, 2011 02:54pm

He gets his foot in front, but because the dribbler is of course, leaning forward, there is torso contact. Sometimes the offensive player even puts his off arm up as a reaction to the crash and it looks like a forearm hitting the defender. I guess this is a judgment play all the way, like many others during the game's course, but I'd like to think the rules makers allow that the defender get there. I think what I'm having trouble with is hearing many on here say that is ONCE LGP is obtained it's not lost..is that what some are saying? Doesn't the offensive player's established path play a part in determining if lgp has been reached?

tomegun Fri Dec 16, 2011 02:59pm

Sounds like a trip to me. And, if you know exactly what happened on the play, as you describe here, I don't think there is anything keeping you from calling it on the defender. I do get the slight feeling that you may want to let this action go to maintain some mythical flow.

Raymond Fri Dec 16, 2011 03:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805416)
He gets his foot in front, but because the dribbler is of course, leaning forward, there is torso contact. Sometimes the offensive player even puts his off arm up as a reaction to the crash and it looks like a forearm hitting the defender. I guess this is a judgment play all the way, like many others during the game's course, but I'd like to think the rules makers allow that the defender get there. I think what I'm having trouble with is hearing many on here say that is ONCE LGP is obtained it's not lost..is that what some are saying? Doesn't the offensive player's established path play a part in determining if lgp has been reached?

But the purpose of LGP,IMO, is that once a defender gets LGP it entitles him to such movement to stay in front of the offensive player. Sounds like you want to punish a defensive player who is quick and/or intuitive enough to adjust to the offensive player's new path.

JRutledge Fri Dec 16, 2011 03:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805416)
He gets his foot in front, but because the dribbler is of course, leaning forward, there is torso contact. Sometimes the offensive player even puts his off arm up as a reaction to the crash and it looks like a forearm hitting the defender. I guess this is a judgment play all the way, like many others during the game's course, but I'd like to think the rules makers allow that the defender get there. I think what I'm having trouble with is hearing many on here say that is ONCE LGP is obtained it's not lost..is that what some are saying? Doesn't the offensive player's established path play a part in determining if lgp has been reached?

When you have obtained LGP, you have to maintain it. It does not mean all contact is legal on the part of the defender. But the defense can get in the way legally of the ball handler and not be responsible for the contact. You still have not explained what a "toe tap" is or what you are trying to say we should agree with. The rules are rather clear about this and actually you do not need torso contact to have a foul on the offensive player either.

Peace

PG_Ref Fri Dec 16, 2011 03:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805416)
I think what I'm having trouble with is hearing many on here say that is ONCE LGP is obtained it's not lost..is that what some are saying?

Once LGP is established, the defender is permitted to maintain the position if s/he is moving laterally or obliquely. LGP is "lost" if the dribbler gets head and shoulders past the torso of the defender.

letemplay Fri Dec 16, 2011 03:34pm

[QUOTE=JRutledge;805422]When you have obtained LGP, you have to maintain it. It does not mean all contact is legal on the part of the defender. But the defense can get in the way legally of the ball handler and not be responsible for the contact. You still have not explained what a "toe tap" is or what you are trying to say we should agree with. The rules are rather clear about this and actually you do not need torso contact to have a foul on the offensive player either.

Peace[/QUOTE

JRut, I've tried to explain what I mean by toe tap as a quick thrust of the defenders foot while trying to get in front of the offensive players path. It seems as though he's only there long enough to tap his toe before contact occurs, yet the offensive player is whistled. That's the best I can do sorry. It just seems the offensive player is put in such a disadvantage here in the close cases/plays I'm seeing. I'm not meaning to totally disagree with everyone, certainly I keep seeing this play on hs and college level being called this way...something about how the game has changed I suppose.

JRutledge Fri Dec 16, 2011 03:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805431)

JRut, I've tried to explain what I mean by toe tap as a quick thrust of the defenders foot while trying to get in front of the offensive players path. It seems as though he's only there long enough to tap his toe before contact occurs, yet the offensive player is whistled. That's the best I can do sorry. It just seems the offensive player is put in such a disadvantage here in the close cases/plays I'm seeing. I'm not meaning to totally disagree with everyone, certainly I keep seeing this play on hs and college level being called this way...something about how the game has changed I suppose.

Again a toe tap has nothing to do with the rule and as long at the defender is in LGP at the time of contact, not sure how you can call it any other way unless you do not have the judgment to know when a defender is in LGP.

And if your suggestion is that at those levels they are calling it the way you suggest, I know at the NCAA level they are getting killed for not calling it the way I suggest on tape. And because of the tape that is being shown, I see more PC fouls being called in the last few years.

Peace

letemplay Fri Dec 16, 2011 03:47pm

OK Thanks
 
That makes sense then. I'll try looking at them that way.

bob jenkins Fri Dec 16, 2011 03:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805431)
JRut, I've tried to explain what I mean by toe tap as a quick thrust of the defenders foot while trying to get in front of the offensive players path. It seems as though he's only there long enough to tap his toe before contact occurs, yet the offensive player is whistled. That's the best I can do sorry. It just seems the offensive player is put in such a disadvantage here in the close cases/plays I'm seeing. I'm not meaning to totally disagree with everyone, certainly I keep seeing this play on hs and college level being called this way...something about how the game has changed I suppose.

If the defender has (and maintains) LGP, then he doesn't even need a "toe tap" to draw a charge -- one or both feet can be in the air.

And, if he doesn't have LGP, but the "toe tap" gives him both feet on the floor, facing the offensive player before the offensive player leaves the floor and before contact (even by a millisecond), then the defense has established LGP and the proper call is a charge.

letemplay Fri Dec 16, 2011 04:14pm

Like I said, I'll try to look at them that way. I just don't like it when (to me anyway) it looks like such a disadvantage to offense and stops the game. I don't think the game was meant to be played that way...but that's just me. I'll keep an open mind about it.

JRutledge Fri Dec 16, 2011 04:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805443)
Like I said, I'll try to look at them that way. I just don't like it when (to me anyway) it looks like such a disadvantage to offense and stops the game. I don't think the game was meant to be played that way...but that's just me. I'll keep an open mind about it.

How can an offensive player be put at a disadvantage when they control where they are going?

Peace

just another ref Fri Dec 16, 2011 04:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805443)
Like I said, I'll try to look at them that way. I just don't like it when (to me anyway) it looks like such a disadvantage to offense and stops the game. I don't think the game was meant to be played that way...but that's just me. I'll keep an open mind about it.

The objective of the defense is to put the offense at a disadvantage.:)

letemplay Fri Dec 16, 2011 04:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 805445)
How can an offensive player be put at a disadvantage when they control where they are going?

Peace

When they are dribbling the ball and a guy comes in at the last second and throws themselves in front where no player, even with extraordinary skills, could stop or change direction.

letemplay Fri Dec 16, 2011 04:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 805446)
The objective of the defense is to put the offense at a disadvantage.:)

This is true of course...and visa versa

JRutledge Fri Dec 16, 2011 04:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805448)
When they are dribbling the ball and a guy comes in at the last second and throws themselves in front where no player, even with extraordinary skills, could stop or change direction.

I thought the purpose of the defense was to get in the way of the offense and stop them from movement?

Peace

Camron Rust Fri Dec 16, 2011 04:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805448)
When they are dribbling the ball and a guy comes in at the last second and throws themselves in front where no player, even with extraordinary skills, could stop or change direction.

If they were paying attention, they'd see the defender coming before the defender got to that spot. Often they do see the defender approaching and try to beat them....sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. But, they do have the choice. It is not like the defender materialized out of thin air.

letemplay Fri Dec 16, 2011 04:39pm

Maybe the rule should be rewritten
 
to include defenders materializing out of thin air... and toe taps:D I'll have to continue this discussion later...gotta ball game to get to..thanks for the comments!

MD Longhorn Fri Dec 16, 2011 05:17pm

I believe I see more officials incorrectly calling it the way you sound like you want it to be called. LGP is really a lot easier than a lot of officials make it out to be. You've acknowledged that there's no "time" involved. You sound as though you think the defenders are just materializing from thin air and it's not fair to the offense. To the contrary - the offensive player can see the defender too - and if the defender can get to a spot before he can, he'd best not go there.

ga314ref Fri Dec 16, 2011 09:13pm

I've tried to...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805416)
He gets his foot in front, but because the dribbler is of course, leaning forward, there is torso contact. Sometimes the offensive player even puts his off arm up as a reaction to the crash and it looks like a forearm hitting the defender. I guess this is a judgment play all the way, like many others during the game's course, but I'd like to think the rules makers allow that the defender get there. I think what I'm having trouble with is hearing many on here say that is ONCE LGP is obtained it's not lost..is that what some are saying? Doesn't the offensive player's established path play a part in determining if lgp has been reached?

...visualize your play. One thing to remember is if the offensive player get his head and shoulders past the defender, the greater responsibility for the contact is then on the defender, so the offensive player, if he can "beat" the defender gains an advantage.

Also, Rut (if I can call him that) is correct: if the official referees the defense, these are easier calls to make.

Raymond Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 805448)
When they are dribbling the ball and a guy comes in at the last second and throws themselves in front where no player, even with extraordinary skills, could stop or change direction.

Well, then the defensive player should get credit for having extraordinary skill, don't you thiink?

JRutledge Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ga314ref (Post 805493)
Also, Rut (if I can call him that)

I have been called that all my life. No big deal. :)

Peace

BillyMac Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:49pm

Because He's Always In One ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ga314ref (Post 805493)
Rut (if I can call him that) is correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 805528)
I have been called that all my life.

In a rut (Idiom): In a settled or established habit or course of action, especially a boring one.

Rob1968 Sun Dec 18, 2011 01:22pm

Semantics and practical application
 
I remember, several years ago, when the Fed changed the word "establish" to "obtain" in 4-23, because "establish" seemed to denote a process that could take an amount of time, in a guard trying to play defense against a ball-handler. Some thought that the defender was at a disadvantage, because contact with the ball-handler could come at different moments during the process.
So, as JRut and others have said, the moment of LGP being obtained allows us to make judgements on subsequent contact in a more uniform manner.
Two weeks ago, with a very good partner, we had seven PC calls in the first half, on team A, and two on team B. When the A coach commented on that fact, as we passed, at half time, I told him he must be pleased that his team was playing so aggressively. He didn't actually dispute whether the calls were correct. (His team was leading by double digits.)


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