When the pregame doesnt carry over to the game

[tref]

So... you pregamed that the train wreck in the paint with multiple bodies on the floor requires a whistle NOT the "get up" signal. Whether the call is right or wrong, we must make a call!

Play comes from the Cs side, wreck, no whistle. We talk about it on the next t/o & agree that a whistle was needed there.

Next time it happens in transition... again, no whistle.

I'm T on both plays, the 2nd one I hadnt made it to halfcourt yet. Do you all come with a late whistle from T to clean it up even though you had the 3rd best look? Or do you "let em live & die" with an incorrect no-call?

[BayStateRef]

You have two partners in better position...who have primary responsibility for the paint. It is not your call.

If they didn't know what to call from their view, what are you going to do with your "third best look?"

I would certainly discuss it with them...but in the locker room. I also don't agree with your pregame: "Whether the call is right or wrong, make a call."

[fiasco]

What BayStateRef said. Probably shouldn't have pregamed that a call MUST be made, because you're not willing to come in as T and make the call.

Either be committed to what was talked about in pregame, or speak up during pregame if there's something you're not comfortable with or willing to do during the game.

Probably, the discussion should have been C or L "must" make a call with a trainwreck in the paint. There are some situations where even selling a call the best you can won't make any call look great from the T position.

[tref]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

You have two partners in better position...who have primary responsibility for the paint. It is not your call.

If they didn't know what to call from their view, what are you going to do with your "third best look?"

Exactly what I did, pass. Unfortunately I was tableside on both...

Originally Posted by fiasco

What BayStateRef said. Probably shouldn't have pregamed that a call MUST be made, because you're not willing to come in as T and make the call.

Why should I have to come from the T? I do believe that a call must be made in those situations! By the covering official(s) though. I'll add that piece to my pregame.

Originally Posted by fiasco

Either be committed to what was talked about in pregame, or speak up during pregame if there's something you're not comfortable with or willing to do during the game.

I did what was discussed in pregame, it just so happens that those particular plays didnt involve me.

Originally Posted by fiasco

Probably, the discussion should have been C or L "must" make a call with a trainwreck in the paint. There are some situations where even selling a call the best you can won't make any call look great from the T position.

I disagree, the T should stay engaged if the play comes from the T & they certainly can have a whistle as they had the SDF of the play.

Now if we're talking about the flat-foot, stuck in the mud, hugging the division line T, you sir, are absolutely correct

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by tref

Why should I have to come from the T?

Because you pregamed that a call MUST be made. You didn't pregame that the C or L must make a call, you pregamed that a call must be made by SOMEONE. All three of you kicked the call based on your pregame, because none of you blew your whistle. You're no less at fault than the C or L.

I just don't like the idea of absolving yourself of responsibility when you agreed in the pregame to someone picking up the call in that situation. You three are a team, and you should all live and die with every call equally based on how you pregame it. It's no one's fault. It's everyone's fault.

[tref]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Because you pregamed that a call MUST be made. You didn't pregame that the C or L must make a call, you pregamed that a call must be made by SOMEONE. All three of you kicked the call based on your pregame, because none of you blew your whistle. You're no less at fault than the C or L.

Okaaaay
1. I didnt know the 6 year guy had to break down who that "someone" is for the 14 & 30+ year guys. I kinda tailor my pregames to my partners experience level.

2. Never blamed anyone, just trying to figure out which of the posters here would "come n get it."

3. If I say lets be prepared to adjudicate on GT & BI, do I have to say the C & T or is that common knowledge??

Originally Posted by fiasco

I just don't like the idea of absolving yourself of responsibility when you agreed in the pregame to someone picking up the call in that situation. You three are a team, and you should all live and die with every call equally based on how you pregame it. It's no one's fault. It's everyone's fault.

You're correct & WE, by far, were the best team on the court (other than those 2 plays) in the 47-44 ballgame where the last second shot came up just short.

I had to go back & read what I wrote! Again, I never tried to absolve myself from anything. As the crew chief on the game, I had to write the game report. Taking responsibility there, plus looking for and finding (thanks to you) a better way to word that particular part of my pregame the morning after is quite accountable.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tref

So... you pregamed that the train wreck in the paint with multiple bodies on the floor requires a whistle NOT the "get up" signal. Whether the call is right or wrong, we must make a call!

Play comes from the Cs side, wreck, no whistle. We talk about it on the next t/o & agree that a whistle was needed there.

Next time it happens in transition... again, no whistle.

I'm T on both plays, the 2nd one I hadnt made it to halfcourt yet. Do you all come with a late whistle from T to clean it up even though you had the 3rd best look? Or do you "let em live & die" with an incorrect no-call?

The real problem is making up absolutes like this -- bodies on the floor don't *always* mean there's a foul. Many times, sure...

Assuming there was one, I'm not coming in here. A single crash in the lane isn't the elephant on the court where I feel I have to save the day from the backcourt.

[tref]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The real problem is making up absolutes like this -- bodies on the floor don't *always* mean there's a foul.

Example please? Remember I'm talking block/charge plays to the rack not clumsy players tripping over each others feet.

[berserkBBK]

Originally Posted by tref

Example please? Remember I'm talking block/charge plays to the rack not clumsy players tripping over each others feet.

I see this all the time... Play to the lane minimal contact and the defense falls (and groans) as if he has been hit by a wrecking ball. One coach wants a block, the other wants a charge, but I have a no call.

[tref]

Originally Posted by berserkBBK

I see this all the time... Play to the lane minimal contact and the defense falls (and groans) as if he has been hit by a wrecking ball. One coach wants a block, the other wants a charge, but I have a no call.

Gotcha, only thing is both players hit the deck...

deecee: Glad I could provide you with a laugh, but I have yet to hear/see an example when both players go down & a no call is the correct call. Please share.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by tref

Gotcha, only thing is both players hit the deck...

deecee: Glad I could provide you with a laugh, but I have yet to hear/see an example when both players go down & a no call is the correct call. Please share.

Saying that if both players go down YOU MUST have a call, RIGHT or WRONG, is about as stupid a statement as one can make. I should know, I make stupid statements all the time.

There are times when contact is minimal and the defense flops and the offense might just land awkward, or trip or even try and flop themselves. If you and I were doing a game and you make that statement I would tell you that if you are going to blow a whistle based solely on some hypothetical absolute and fabricate a call, that may or may not exist, I would tell you that don't be prepared for me to defend you to the coaches.

Now if you tell me that in instances where we have multiple bodies hitting the ground we should make sure that we get a good look and if the contact appears severe that we not set a precedent and pass on this play, that's something else. But saying we must always have a foul called when multiple bodies hit the ground only lets me know that you must have been to a couple camps this summer and heard a few counselors and vets say this and you implied it to be an absolute.

[berserkBBK]

Originally Posted by tref

Gotcha, only thing is both players hit the deck...

Contact that I just described often will end up with the offensive player stumbling and sometime sprawling on the floor.
Both players on the floor is not always a foul.

Originally Posted by truerookie

Hey, try this one out next time. "If bodies go to the floor let make sure we know how they got there."

+1
Heard this a few times and this is a great way to put it.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The real problem is making up absolutes like this -- bodies on the floor don't *always* mean there's a foul. Many times, sure...

Assuming there was one, I'm not coming in here. A single crash in the lane isn't the elephant on the court where I feel I have to save the day from the backcourt.

+1.

I always grin and laugh on the inside when I hear an official say this.

[jkumpire]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The real problem is making up absolutes like this -- bodies on the floor don't *always* mean there's a foul. Many times, sure...

Assuming there was one, I'm not coming in here. A single crash in the lane isn't the elephant on the court where I feel I have to save the day from the backcourt.

In the state I work officials have been explicitly told there has to be a call made on a play like this, either block, charge or T. The head of officials in my state told people that at multiple state meetings across the state. He did not say it on the online presentation he made, however.

So in my state it is possible for a T to make this call if the others walked off on it, and the evaluator would not mark the T down for doing it.

After this statement is made, do you make the call or not in my state?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

In the state I work officials have been explicitly told there has to be a call made on a play like this, either block, charge or T. The head of officials in my state told people that at multiple state meetings across the state. He did not say it on the online presentation he made, however.

So in my state it is possible for a T to make this call if the others walked off on it, and the evaluator would not mark the T down for doing it.

After this statement is made, do you make the call or not in my state?

I do what I'm told. I probably, if asked by a coach, would say "Hey, I'm told by the state we have to have a foul there. Please take it up with them." In your state. I don't have to operate under such restrictions.

I frequently see minimal contact, a defender embellishing, and an offensive player stumbling over the defender. It's not a PC foul, it's not a block, it's not a travel -- it's two players going down for no good reason.

I'll see people making stuff up -- most often a travel (the perfect bail out call, I guess) or a block. I prefer to take every play at face value.