Big decision for LeBron?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
The point is (which I think you got) is that many kids decide to work rather than attend college.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to dispute that point. I was only trying to point out that many of the kids who skip college to directly to work don't have the option of going to college. For many of them, the financial obligations are either completely out of reach or so large as to make it unreasonable to carry so much debt. Others simply can't get in based on their academic merit. There's nothing wrong in them making that decision.

But if a kid who was mechanically gifted were offered a full boat to college and turned it down to join the union, I think you might see some people talk about it. Again, I would say that there's nothing wrong with making that decision, but it might prompt some discussion, just as Lebron's decision has.

And I also agree that it's a no-brainer for Lebron. College and a possible blown knee, or $100 million in the bank tomorrow. . .

Chuck

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Yeah, I wasn't trying to dispute that point. I was only trying to point out that many of the kids who skip college to directly to work don't have the option of going to college. For many of them, the financial obligations are either completely out of reach or so large as to make it unreasonable to carry so much debt. Others simply can't get in based on their academic merit. There's nothing wrong in them making that decision.

If you changed "many" to "some" you would have a more believable argument. I think today we are lucky enough to live in a country where generally if you want to go to college you can make it happen, full time or part time, even at the high cost. But you have to want to make it happen. (And before we fire this one up again yes, there are some who find it economically impossible to attend college.)

But if a kid who was mechanically gifted were offered a full boat to college and turned it down to join the union, I think you might see some people talk about it.

Well, they might & they might not wonder but not one of these people would complain about how *the system* failed the budding young plumber. And they would certainly be less inclined to wonder if the kid joined the union so he can one day take full ownership of his father's huge plumbing business. Starts to look like a no brainer.

Again, I would say that there's nothing wrong with making that decision, but it might prompt some discussion, just as Lebron's decision has.

And I also agree that it's a no-brainer for Lebron. College and a possible blown knee, or $100 million in the bank tomorrow. . .

Chuck

Even if LJ was given a written guarrantee from the Diety of your choice that he would survive 4 yrs of college ball unhurt it would be a no-brainer. College is just not going to give anything to this kid that he doesn't already have, except an education. And he does not have to be a college basketball player to get an education.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
College is just not going to give anything to this kid that he doesn't already have, except an education.

If you changed "that he doesn't already have" to "that he can't learn in the pros" then you'd have a more believable argument I think that he would be able to learn a lot from a good college coach, don't you? You think his HS coaching taught him all he needs for the NBA?

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

In my experience, 98% of the people who go to college don't go for the pure experience of getting and education. They go to get an education that will allow them to get the type of job they want at the level of salary they want. If you can get that after high school, take it.

I also wonder why it's the basketballers who go straight to the NBA from HS that are criticized, while the baseballers who sign $50,000/year minor league contracts are not. When LeBron signs his name on his NBA contract (actually, when he signs the shoe deal) he will be set for life and will never need college. When Joe Schmoe at the local high school gets drafted in the 46th round by the Braves and signs for $50,000, he has a very good chance of washing out without enough money to make him secure, and without a scholarship offer.

[Hawks Coach]

Is anybody asking whether pop idols (music, TV, or movie stars) are going to college or what harm we have done by them not going there? (it may be harmful to your sanity to listen to them, but I am not here to question musical taste!) There are many failed musicians and actors out there that decided to roll the dice and skip the college experience. They too suffer as a result of skipping school, but we don't have a huge debate over the harm to them of seeing their millionaire brothers and sisters make it big in music or movies.

If we didn't have college B-ball teams that were setting people up for pro B-ball jobs, nobody would ask these questions. What needs to happen is that these people (whatever their field of endeavor) get proper advice so they cna make a good decision and then handle the money and the fame. Most of them come with no preparation for the adulation that accompanies being a big star. That is far more of a threat to their future than signing a huge contract.

[theboys]

I think the point of the article is, which is the same frustration I have, that our obsession with sports is ruining their very essence. High school basketball is supposed to be played in small gyms, with foldout wooden stands. Stands that are filled with fans who are passionate for their respective teams, led by cheerleaders who haven't a clue who's winning. And, if the game makes it to TV, its just another score in a long line of scores.

LeBron James isn't the problem. He's just the latest symptom of a worsening disease. Let the kid makes his millions. Just don't ruin the game along the way.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

If you changed "that he doesn't already have" to "that he can't learn in the pros" then you'd have a more believable argument

All right, neither of us are believable.

I think that he would be able to learn a lot from a good college coach, don't you? You think his HS coaching taught him all he needs for the NBA?

Well, let's see...odds are he'll go first in the NBA draft. Evidence seems to indicate the answers to your questions are "no" and "yes".

[Edited by Dan_ref on Apr 29th, 2003 at 09:47 AM]

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I think that he would be able to learn a lot from a good college coach, don't you? You think his HS coaching taught him all he needs for the NBA?

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Well, let's see...odds are he'll go first in the NBA draft. Evidence seems to indicate the answers to your questions are "no" and "yes".

Kwame Brown went first in the draft, and you can't answer either of those questions the way you did with respect to his game. He would have benefited greatly from some NCAA prep, and he didn't learn everything he needed for the NBA in HS. It is ridiculous to assert that HS play can prepare a kid for an 82 game pro season where, every night, the worst guys on the bench are bette than the guys you played last year. And you are not expected to be at the level of those bench players, you are supposed to be taking it to the other team's starting line-up every night - that's why you are the #1 pick.

NBA teams take a LeBron James because they feel they have to, since a kid with his raw talent doesn't come around every day. Even if he isn't ready yet, they will never have a kid with his talent if they don't pick him first (or so they believe). Clearly, many of the direct to pro players like Kobe, KG, T-Mac, and Jermaine O'Neal are at the top of the league now, but it took time to get there. And not everyone does it. It's worth the investment if you can hang onto them long enough to benefit from them.

It is extremely rare for a HS kid come in and be productive his first year the way that Jordan did, or any other strong post-college #1 pick. Amare Stoudamire is exceptional because he is the lone exception.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Kwame Brown went first in the draft, and you can't answer either of those questions the way you did with respect to his game. He would have benefited greatly from some NCAA prep, and he didn't learn everything he needed for the NBA in HS. It is ridiculous to assert that HS play can prepare a kid for an 82 game pro season where, every night, the worst guys on the bench are bette than the guys you played last year. And you are not expected to be at the level of those bench players, you are supposed to be taking it to the other team's starting line-up every night - that's why you are the #1 pick.

NBA teams take a LeBron James because they feel they have to, since a kid with his raw talent doesn't come around every day. Even if he isn't ready yet, they will never have a kid with his talent if they don't pick him first (or so they believe). Clearly, many of the direct to pro players like Kobe, KG, T-Mac, and Jermaine O'Neal are at the top of the league now, but it took time to get there. And not everyone does it. It's worth the investment if you can hang onto them long enough to benefit from them.

It is extremely rare for a HS kid come in and be productive his first year the way that Jordan did, or any other strong post-college #1 pick. Amare Stoudamire is exceptional because he is the lone exception.

The problem is not that these kids need more *basketball* experience/education. The problem is they need more *life* experience (and usually 30 more lbs of muscle). It's a rare HS kid that can compete with men in the high pressure, high stakes, high visibility world of pro sports. To a large degree they might be just as well served if they joined the plumbers union & matured for 2 or 3 years. Or even the Navy for that matter. So, what you're really saying here is that big time NCAA basketball serves as the minor leagues for the NBA. Could very well be true. Anyway, I'll stick by my original statement but change it slightly, because the maturity issue is a major problem for many of these kids: there is nothing LJ will learn in college that he couldn't learn on the job that he'll need to be a succesful pro.

[Hawks Coach]

I am willing to bet that Carmelo Anthony has a better first year than LeBron has in his second year.

It is more than just muscle that the HS kids lack. Every time a player steps up in level, the moves that used to work don't work so well anymore, at least not at the speed they worked before. Doesn't matter if you are talking about going from rec ball to travel ball, MS to HS, etc. Skipping a level often acts as somewhat of a set-back. It takes longer to develop (and some never do) when the leap is too great. Not saying that this is universally true, but the consensus in the league is that these direct from HS players take 3-4 years to get pro ready.

That said, if you can hold the kid after the initial contract, you will probably have a bonafide all star. And college kids can spend 3-4 years at school and either be unprepared or take a year or two to excel. And I wonder if it isn't more appropriate that an outstanding young player that doesn't want a college education goes straight to the pros rather than having a one-year stop a Syracuse.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I am willing to bet that Carmelo Anthony has a better first year than LeBron has in his second year.

That is completely besides the point.

It is more than just muscle that the HS kids lack.

You need to reread my post. The key issue IMO is maturity, not muscle or even basketball skills. College, Navy, plumbers union, European ball, USBL, NBDL - if a player has the package to be succesful in the NBA but needs to develop as an adult then any of these that will add the years to gain that maturity.

[Hawks Coach]

My Carmelo point is that he would never have been considered for the number one pick last year, but one year of college has him as a serious possibility. His rookie year places him one year beyond HS, just like LeBron's second year will. And I am arguing that this year's second pick (and non-consideration for last years first pick as an HS senior) will be better in his second post-HS year than a guy that considered going pro last year.

And when we look at each player one year beyond HS, it is definitely relevant if the college experience will have made Carmelo more ready than LeBron. It demonstrates that the college step helps prepare people to make the NBA step.