bench-clearing brawl in state final

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

The game was televised live statewide. They replayed the game later that day. They edited out the fight. But officials have said that they'd review the tape and assess appropriate penalties.

Probably nothing further will happen until May 21, the date of the next PIAA meeting.

[Dubby]

I haven't seen the tape so I'm only going by what was said on here and the article posted. With that being said;

I don't think the high school league was right. Rules are there for a reason and they should be enforced evenly, fairly and at all times of the season. Players and coaches are supposed to play to win but still stay within the rules. When a fight happens players are given the ultimate penalty in a game, disqualification. What kind of message is this sending that the high school league would break (not bend, break) there own rules for the sake of crowning a champion?

I play to win as much as anyone. But rules are in place to ensure a fair outcome and also to deter similar behavior from happening again. If one team had more kids involved in the fight than the other team, how fair is it to them that their rivals get to continue playing? They are now being punished for staying out of the fight.

This action by the league simply tells kids it's okay to break rules if it's a really important game. It's during situations like this that the high school league needs to take a stand, have some integrity and enforce the rules the way they were written.

[JRutledge]

why everyone tries to make this a major issue because a State decides to make a judgement. This is the State Finals game. Not the Thanksgiving Tournament. The State had money invested and time invested to have this game. And people think it should have been scrapped all because the NF made a rule. It is not like they cannot punish the kids in other ways. They can ban them from other sports or require some kind suspension (at least a school board could) for representing the school in other ways. Just because they did not play the rest of the game, does not mean punishment will not be handed out or enforced. But I am sure the paper will not cover that aspect of the story.

Peace

[Dubby]

You're right, since a lot of money was involved that makes it ok.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dubby
You're right, since a lot of money was involved that makes it ok.

Did not say it made it OK. But if you have a special event, you do not handle it as if it was any other event.

I do not know about you, if I pay $2000 for a suit or outfit, I am going to treat that suit differently than the one I buy for $150. But that is just me.

Peace

[Hawks Coach]

jrut
That was my point exactly. This is not a regular season game. You don't want to end the season this way, and the state clearly plans to address this thing. Hopefuly they choose an appropriate punishment that allows future players for both teams to continue playing but hammers them hard enough to prevent future incidents. I could even see them having a one year post-season ban - it would allow the kids to play the season but let them know that you want to play in the tournament, you follow the rules.

You do not want to send the message that this type of thing is tolerated in big games, but you also don't want to end your state championship in the first quarter. The state seems to have found a way to handle both aspects of this issue, and good on them.

One point I would quibble with is the one about the paper not covering it once punishment is handed out. I know the Post HS Sports section would have an article following up when the decision is made, and I imagine the same will be true in PA. Depending on the severity of the punishment, the article may or may not draw much attention. Shut a major progam down and it could be front page of the sports section - slap them on the wrist and it falls to page 12.

[Ref in PA]

throw anybody out - if it is that important of a game? Just overlook the fights, call a common foul and go on.

I disagree with our State directors who made the decision. As I said earlier, I think my job could be harder next year because of the precedence set at that championship game. It upsets me to think they did not have the courage to follow the rules. As a referee in Pennsylvania, I almost feel betrayed. Nothing violates the integrity of the game more than ignoring blatantly the rules.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Ref in PA
throw anybody out - if it is that important of a game? Just overlook the fights, call a common foul and go on.

I disagree with our State directors who made the decision. As I said earlier, I think my job could be harder next year because of the precedence set at that championship game. It upsets me to think they did not have the courage to follow the rules. As a referee in Pennsylvania, I almost feel betrayed. Nothing violates the integrity of the game more than ignoring blatantly the rules.

If your contention is that there is no punishment, then I do not see where you are coming from. Because punishment can come in all kinds of forms and directions. So basically according to you, we just end the game, have no winner but by forfeit and send everyone home with a horrible outcome.

I went to a military school for one year, if we did things that violated rules outside of the school grounds, the punishment was much more sever than anything they State would do if we violated our own rules. Let us not make it seem like the only ones that can punish someone is the officials and the state.

Just my opinion.

Peace

[Dubby]

JRutledge,
While I respectfully disagree with you I do see your point. I'm just curious how it's possible to punish these kids involved after the game is over without unfairly punishing others. One suggestion that was made was that they should be suspened from other sports. But what if my only sport is baseball and 4 of the basketball players invovled in the fight are also starters on the baseball team. If they are suspened from any baseball games now I am being punished even though I wasn't on the team that got in the fight. Other than suspending them from other sports, what else can the high school league do to them? That is why I feel the punishment needs to be taken care of at the time it happens. To me, it's the only way to punish the team inovled without harming those who weren't.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Ref in PA
throw anybody out - if it is that important of a game? Just overlook the fights, call a common foul and go on.

I disagree with our State directors who made the decision. As I said earlier, I think my job could be harder next year because of the precedence set at that championship game. It upsets me to think they did not have the courage to follow the rules. As a referee in Pennsylvania, I almost feel betrayed. Nothing violates the integrity of the game more than ignoring blatantly the rules.

So you would prefer that they end the championship game right there? Everyone seems to think that this would be continued 4 v 5, but all fighters go, so all players would be out at that time and the game would be over. And you have just decided your state championship with only two minutes of the game having been played (this is when the fight occurred - 6 minute mark of 1st quarter).

I am certain the state will address this before next season, and hopefully they will make it clear whether or not they consider this a precedent for games from here forward. And if you have a concern about this being a precedent, you and your association should contact the state HS association and let them know your concern and what you would like them to do to address it before the next season. You speak as though no punishment was being handed out - that is not at all clear. I think that some pretty smart people said we don't want to end on this note (the brawl is bad enough), lets finish the game if we can and deal with repercussions later.

I say that you should wait to judge this until after final penalties are handed down. It may well be that the penalties here will exceed those of merely ending a game early, sending a clear message that this type of conduct will not be tolerated.

[Ref in PA]

Just throwing out one player is not fair. Yes, they continued the basketball game and completed it and the team that lost was at a disadvantage because their star player was the only one tossed. Continuing the basketball game proved nothing. It crowned a champion - deserving or not is a matter of opinion.

My personal opinion would be that neither of the schools deserve the championship because of the way they acted. Yes, discipline may be handed out later to the schools, but certainly the seniors benefited from the decision and will pay no penalty. Perhaps the coaches deserve some chastisement also. We will have to wait and see how this turns out.

To me, the most forceful message would have been to continue 5-4 or stop the game depending on what on court players did during the fight. But then again, I'm just a ref, not a director.

[PublicBJ]

If I were the Athletic Director (or Principal) of one of the schools, and I was in attendance (as I'm sure they were), I would have pulled my kids out of the game. No way as a leader of my school or athletic program would I allow kids that participate in a bench-clearing fight to continue representing my school in the game.

Of course, that's just me. Damn ethics keep getting in the way...

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Ref in PA
To me, the most forceful message would have been to continue 5-4 or stop the game depending on what on court players did during the fight. But then again, I'm just a ref, not a director.

You say one team was unfairly penalized because their star was thrown out while nobody else was. So why 5v4? You are now hurting the very team you say got unfairly penalized by handing out an even harsher penalty than the state gave out. You toss their star and every reserve, and make them play against the other team's starters for 30 minutes while down a man. That result is pretty predictable. At least the state's decision allowed it to be a reasonable contest.

Stopping the game was the only other reasonable option. All fighters get ejected, if you are following letter of the law, which you advocate. However, you seem to lean toward continuing the game, but under the most bizarre of circumstances that you would have a harder time justifying than the state's decision to continue with one ejection. And you force a team to play 4 on 5 - if you would do that, then simply end the game.

[Ref in PA]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

You say one team was unfairly penalized because their star was thrown out while nobody else was. So why 5v4? You are now hurting the very team you say got unfairly penalized by handing out an even harsher penalty than the state gave out. You toss their star and every reserve, and make them play against the other team's starters for 30 minutes while down a man. That result is pretty predictable. At least the state's decision allowed it to be a reasonable contest.

Stopping the game was the only other reasonable option. All fighters get ejected, if you are following letter of the law, which you advocate. However, you seem to lean toward continuing the game, but under the most bizarre of circumstances that you would have a harder time justifying than the state's decision to continue with one ejection. And you force a team to play 4 on 5 - if you would do that, then simply end the game.

I advocate the 4 on 5 situation because that is what the rules state should happen. I must admit I was not there and did not see the game on TV. We are assuming that no players on the court participated and that all bench personnel from both teams participated. After all was said and done, it could have been a 3 on 3, 5 on 5 with a sub or 0 on 0. The only thing we do know is that the NFHS rules were not followed. I am only stating that when rules are disregarded, the integrity of the game is compromised in my eyes. It was a bad situation, with no good options for the refs to call. I just happen to think the option that was dictated to the refs was not a good option. If the final result of ejections ended with a 5 on 4, I would prefer continuing the game. Less than that, I think I would prefer ending the game.

[JeffTheRef]

Ya'll who think this was handled the right way are, how shall I say it?

Yes, if everybody was involved in the fracas, they are all out of the game, and the game is over. Tough noogie. The fans go home truly disgruntled and the full impact of the disgrace falls on the two teams. Maybe it has a chilling effect on freely execising lack of self-restraint.