Substition?

[Clark Kent]

A1 is fouled and will be shooting 2 FT's, when A calls a timeout. After the warning horn A6 reports to the table to substitute for (a) A2 or (b) A1.

When is A6 allowed in the game in (a) and (b)? And do you have a reference for whatever side you support?

[APG]

A6 would be allowed to subsitute after the first free throw for A2 as that's the next legal time for substitutes. He'd be allowed to sub for A1 after the last free if successful.

Rule 3, Section 3 Substitution

ART. 1...A substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorer giving his/her number.

c. During multiple free-throws personal fouls, substitutions may be made, only before the final attempt in the sequence and after the final attempt has been converted.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

A1 is fouled and will be shooting 2 FT's, when A calls a timeout. After the warning horn A6 reports to the table to substitute for (a) A2 or (b) A1.

When is A6 allowed in the game in (a) and (b)? And do you have a reference for whatever side you support?

What was your answer? What are the sides that are available for an answer?

I don't have a side I support. I just go by the rule.

[Clark Kent]

3-3-1
A substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorer, giving his/her number.
a. Between quarters, at halftime and during a time-out, the substitute must report or be in position to report to the scorer, prior to the warning signal which is sounded 15 seconds before the end of the intermission or the time-out

So my real question is why? Why can A6 enter the game when there are free throws to be administered but if it were an out of bounds play A6 wouldn't be allowed in the game if he/she failed to report to the table prior to the warning horn?

And what rule (or lack of rule) changes the status of the substitute to become a player?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

3.3.1
A substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorer, giving his/her number.
a. Between quarters, at halftime and during a time-out, the substitute must report or be in position to report to the scorer, prior to the warning signal which is sounded 15 seconds before the end of the intermission or the time-out

So my real question is why? Why can A6 enter the game when there are free throws to be administered but if it were an out of bounds play A6 wouldn't be allowed in the game if he/she failed to report to the table prior to the warning horn?

And what rule (or lack of rule) changes the status of the substitute to become a player?

To allow the other team to counter / set a play accounting for the sub.

A sub becomes a player once s/he legally enters the court or the ball becomes live.

(I'm very confused by this line of questioning.)

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

3.3.1
A substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorer, giving his/her number.
a. Between quarters, at halftime and during a time-out, the substitute must report or be in position to report to the scorer, prior to the warning signal which is sounded 15 seconds before the end of the intermission or the time-out

So my real question is why? Why can A6 enter the game when there are free throws to be administered but if it were an out of bounds play A6 wouldn't be allowed in the game if he/she failed to report to the table prior to the warning horn?

And what rule (or lack of rule) changes the status of the substitute to become a player?

As APG stated, A6 can come in before the last free-throw or after free-throws have been successfully completed. Why? Because shooting free throws is not during a time-out and that's the rule. Go a little further down in your reading of 3-3. What would you do if A6 reported during the first of two free throws? Would you not let that player in if we just came out of a timeout before starting the free throw process?

[Clark Kent]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

To allow the other team to counter / set a play accounting for the sub.

So why couldn't the coach have drawn up a set play from a FT?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

A sub becomes a player once s/he legally enters the court or the ball becomes live.

Yes, I'm aware of that fact, but I want to know why a sub who following a timeout has failed to report to the table prior to the warning horn allowed to "legally" become a "player" when a free throw is to follow and not in other situations?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

(I'm very confused by this line of questioning.)

I'm trying to understand why? In both an inbounds play and free throw situation the ball is live when it is at the disposal of the inbounder and free throw shooter, also in both cases the clock is not running, so why is a sub who failed to meet the requirements in one situation allowed to legally enter the game when they are not allowed in another situation?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

Yes, I'm aware of that fact, but I want to know why a sub who following a timeout has failed to report to the table prior to the warning horn allowed to "legally" become a "player" when a free throw is to follow and not in other situations?

In both situations, they must wait until the "next opportunity to substitute."

That's (generally) after the ball becomes live, and then dead with the clock stopped.

[Clark Kent]

Originally Posted by BLydic

As APG stated, A6 can come in before the last free-throw or after free-throws have been successfully completed. Why? Because shooting free throws is not during a time-out and that's the rule. Go a little further down in your reading of 3-3. What would you do if A6 reported during the first of two free throws? Would you not let that player in if we just came out of a timeout before starting the free throw process?

I would allow A6 to come in for A1 or A2 because the rules state in 3-3-1 d says that subs are allowed in "before the final attempt in the sequence and after the final attempt has been converted." but in 3-3-1 a it says they have to be to the table prior to the warning horn following a time out.

So what I want to know is why? Where is the rule that says a time-out ends for free throws but doesn't end for an out of bounds play. Because in both cases the ball is live when at the disposal of the Free thrower as well with an inbounder, yet also in both cases the clock does not start.

I'm sorry if I am being anal about it, but I had someone ask me the question and now I want to give them the answer they are looking for.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

So what I want to know is why? Where is the rule that says a time-out ends for free throws but doesn't end for an out of bounds play. Because in both cases the ball is live when at the disposal of the Free thrower as well with an inbounder, yet also in both cases the clock does not start.

In both cases the substitution is allowed at the next dead ball. ??

[Clark Kent]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

In both situations, they must wait until the "next opportunity to substitute."

Where are you referencing that quoted part of "next opportunity to substitute"?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That's (generally) after the ball becomes live, and then dead with the clock stopped.

Ok....I can see that. Because the ball becomes live when at the disposal of the free throw shooter (6-1-2b) and then dead when the shot is made (or missed as in rule 6-7-2 a & b) where as it is live when at the disposal of the inbounder (6-1-2b) but it doesn't become dead until meets one of the requirements in 6-7.

Thank you

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

Where are you referencing that quoted part of "next opportunity to substitute"?

I don't have my books here, but there's some statement in 3-3 to the effect that "other than as restricted subs may enter at any time the ball is dead and the clock is stopped."

Ok....I can see that. Because the ball becomes live when at the disposal of the free throw shooter (6.1.2b) and then dead when the shot is made (or missed as in rule 6.7.2 a & b) where as it is live when at the disposal of the inbounder (6.1.2b) but it never becomes dead.

Thank you

Right, and if there was a throw-in violation, or a foul, or ... causing the ball to become dead before the thorw-in was complete, you'd allow the sub.

[tref]

Originally Posted by clark kent

where are you referencing that quoted part of "next opportunity to substitute"?

3-4

[Clark Kent]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I don't have my books here, but there's some statement in 3-3 to the effect that "other than as restricted subs may enter at any time the ball is dead and the clock is stopped."





Right, and if there was a throw-in violation, or a foul, or ... causing the ball to become dead before the thorw-in was complete, you'd allow the sub.

Thank you! I appreciate the help!

[Clark Kent]

Originally Posted by tref

3-4

3-3-4?

That is a different situation.

"A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his/her replacement."

If that were the case then the clock would have a bearing on if subs were permitted in the game following a time-out.