block/charge article

[walter]

No place in the definition of intial guarding position does the phrase one step to change or alter direction, course, etc. occur. NFHS "to obtain intial guarding position the guard must have both feet touching the floor and the front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent. (4-23-2)". NFHS "Guarding an ooponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without the ball no time or distance is required to obtain an intial guarding position. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor. (4-23-4). NCAA "Every player is entitled to a spot on the floor provided such players get there first without illegally contacting an opponent. It is assumed the guard may shift to maintain guarding position in the path of the dribbler provided the guard doesn't charge into the dribbler nor otherwise cause contact as outlined in Rule 10-10. ...to establish intial legal guarding position on the player with the ball, the guard must have both feet touching the floor. If the guard jumps into position initially, both feet must return to the floor after the jump before the guard has established a guarding position. The guard's torso must be facing the opponent. No time and distance are required. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have established legal position before the opponent left the floor. (4-19a)". The only place that time and distance are factors are guarding a moving opponent without the ball. Then, and only then, in both NFHS and NCAA, the distance given need not exceed more than two strides and the guard must give the opponent time and distance to avoid contact. I don't know where anyone came up with this one step business. If a guard is quick eneough to jump in front of a moving player, get both feet on the ground and take contact on the torso, the only call that can be made is player control. If an official is so focused on a dribbler and out of nowhere a defender appears in front of the dribbler and that defender meets the above criteria and because it happened so fast the official calls a block, in the words of one of my supervisors, "that official should be arrested because he stole a great defensive play from the defender because the official was so in love with the ball he forgot to ref the defense because he obviously never knew the defender was coming!" Intial guarding position can be established instantaneously when it relates to an opponent with the ball. No where does is one step required when guarding the ball. If the defender gets there first, no matter how fast, reward the defense!!!

[BktBallRef]

Everything that you said is true Walter. I agree with you 100%. But Jim isn't quoting a rule. He's describing how the play develops. If the defender and the dribbler are both moving, then the defender is not going to be able to get in front of the dribbler if he is only one step away. It's that simple. If the defender gets to the spot first, then obviously, the dribbler was more than a step away. If he doesn't get there first, then he stepped in after the dribbler got to the spot. We're talking about two players who are moving.

Nowhere in his article did Jim say such a rule exists. You guys are misinterpreting what he said. Maybe he didn't say it very well. But in the time a fast moving dribbler takes a step, a defender is not going to be able to get in front of him, and establish his position if the dribbler is less than one step away. It can't be done. The dribbler will make contact before the defender is set. That's a block.

And that's what he's trying to tell you.

[walter]

I've gone back and re-read the article. I agree if you take the context of the rule out of the play and visualize the situation he may be correct. I may have gone overboard in stating all the rules but the main point of what I was trying to say is make sure the official sees the entire play by getting the best angle and floor positioning so the call becomes very easy to make. In my opinion, for what that's worth, block/charge is the easiest call in basketball if you know the rule and you maintain good position and angles on the floor no matter how fast the players are moving. Too many people focus on the ball handler and next thing you know there's a crash and people say, "Wow where did he/she come from? Must be a block!" Focusing and locking in on the ball can get you in a whole lot of trouble and that's why there are a lot of people out there who think block/charge is the hardest call to make. For me, with the ever increasing speed and athletic ability of today's players, traveling is the hardest call in basketball. But that's another discussion.

[westford]

I had a call block/charge call last year, at a varsity game, where the only two people in the gym (the two refs) seemed to knew that it was the right call. The offensive player came down on a one on one breakaway layup. The defensive player esablished and stayed in legal guarding position in front of her, as the offensive player drove to the basket. The defensive player slowed down, but never stopped, while the offensive player maintained the same speed. Sure enough, a good collision, right after she picked up her dribble. I've got this nailed, have refereed the defense all the way in, a clear player control. It was a smart play by the defense.

But did we ever hear it from the home coach, who went absolutely ballistic, along with the home crowd...even the away coach had a "I got away with one" look on his face. Most of them think that a defensive player must be stationairy, for player control fouls to occur.

Would you fellow refs stop to explain the rule then, amidst the bedlam, or do it later on, or even post game?

[mick]

Originally posted by westford
I had a call block/charge call last year, at a varsity game, where the only two people in the gym (the two refs) seemed to knew that it was the right call. The offensive player came down on a one on one breakaway layup. The defensive player esablished and stayed in legal guarding position in front of her, as the offensive player drove to the basket. The defensive player slowed down, but never stopped, while the offensive player maintained the same speed. Sure enough, a good collision, right after she picked up her dribble. I've got this nailed, have refereed the defense all the way in, a clear player control. It was a smart play by the defense.

But did we ever hear it from the home coach, who went absolutely ballistic, along with the home crowd...even the away coach had a "I got away with one" look on his face. Most of them think that a defensive player must be stationairy, for player control fouls to occur.

Would you fellow refs stop to explain the rule then, amidst the bedlam, or do it later on, or even post game?

Westford,
Similarly happened to me last Friday, both moving and dribbler stumbled sideways into defender. Collision was too much to avoid calling. I called the PC, and I took the heat.
It is impossible to deal with ignorance.
mick

[Gary Brendemuehl]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
But in the time a fast moving dribbler takes a step, a defender is not going to be able to get in front of him, and establish his position if the dribbler is less than one step away. It can't be done. The dribbler will make contact before the defender is set. That's a block.

And that's what he's trying to tell you.

Does everyone accept this? Are you sure you are not penalizing a defender who is able to establish position because he is quicker than the dribbler?

Is it easier to determine that the offensive player is a step or more away from the defender as he starts to establish position or is it easier to determine that the defender is set before the contact occurs?

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Gary Brendemuehl

Does everyone accept this? Are you sure you are not penalizing a defender who is able to establish position because he is quicker than the dribbler?

No. I pay absolutely no attention to distance the defender is from the dribbler. If the defender is there at the collision, it doesn't really matter how they got there or from how far. Once they established that initial position---they are there---it gets easier; as long as they aren't moving into the dribbler when contact occurs, it's a PC or nothing.

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Is it easier to determine that the offensive player is a step or more away from the defender as he starts to establish position or is it easier to determine that the defender is set before the contact occurs?

When officials revert to almost right paraphrases, they probably get the call right almost all the time. To put a time/distance philosophy into block/charge is to actually change the rule...even if it is subtle. Such a change only serves to penalize the defense and is an easy way to avoid the tough call.

As you can tell, I am very particular about precisely knowing the rules. My problem a few years ago was applying them too literally, calling things that should have been a no-call. Having come beyond that phase of development, I still feel it is critical to know the actual rule in order to not call something that doesn't exist. I see too many calls on phantom rules.

How many times do you see a travel or double dribble called on a fumble? Too many!

How many times do you hear the explanation that it was a block because the defender wasn't set? Too many, since being set is no longer a requirement (it once was, in philosophy if not actual rule).

[Edited by Camron Rust on Oct 4th, 2000 at 03:38 PM]

[Dave King]

To reiterate what Camron states, and to avoid confusing the less veteran officials here, I think we need to avoid throwing stuff into rules (or subtle interpretations) that are not part of the rule.

Stating that a defender "just can't" get setup in less than a step is false. You'll have well intentioned officials such as Rainmaker telling coaches they called a block "because B1 didn't give A1 a step to stop or alter course"
There is no such provision in the rule, as others have noted.

The laws of physics say that if B1 is quick enough to get in front of A1 in less than a step, then he got there!!

We have enough coaches & fans quoting "basketball myths" to us referess, we don't need to perpetuate the myths ourselves.

dk

[BktBallRef]

Call it a myth if you would like to but the defender has to establish a guarded position before the dribbler can be called for a PC. No, time and distance are not factors to be considered when deciding whether a player established position or not. But we have to be able to discuss it in terms that it can be understood. While it may not be an absolute that a defender can't be quick enough to establish positon if a fast moving dribbler is less than a step away, there are very few HS players possessing the quickness to establish such position. To allow a player to just jump in front of a player driving to the basket without establishing position is incorrect.

We also have to be professional enough to understand our training and not say stupid things to coaches, no matter how long we've been officiating.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Oct 6th, 2000 at 09:15 AM]

[walter]

I think we need to make sure that we differentiate between intial guarding position and simply moving to maintain or continue defensive guarding. Especially since there are various levels of officials participating here. To establish initial guarding position, a guard simply needs to have two feet on the ground facing the opponent. If the opponent has the ball, time and distance are not factors when determining whether the guard established the intitial guarding position. Some of us on this thread are simply stating that IF a defender is quick enough to jump in front of a fast moving dribbler and get two feet down facing the dribbler and contact occurs on the torso, it has to be PC. Here's a question from one of my supervisors, if a dribbler is in the backcourt moving toward the frontcourt, and a defender is in the paint of the dribbler's frontcourt looking at the dribbler, has that defender established initial guarding position on the dribbler?

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by walter
Here's a question from one of my supervisors, if a dribbler is in the backcourt moving toward the frontcourt, and a defender is in the paint of the dribbler's frontcourt looking at the dribbler, has that defender established initial guarding position on the dribbler?

I say yes.

[walter]

That's the correct answer. He then went on to state that since he/she already met the requirements and established the initial guarding position, as long as he/she takes contact on the torso and is not moving into the dribbler when contact occurs, it can be nothing but PC!