All Girls, All the Time

[nine01c]

Originally posted by oatmealqueen
Because the responses to this thread are opinions, I will offer these comments as my opinion, and respectfully so.
In Michigan we have seperate seasons for the boy's and girl's seasons. (Girls=Aug.-Dec... Boy's=Dec.-March) So all of us do both boy's and girl's during the course of the school year. I work both.
I was taken aback by comments such as "subjected to" and "training ground for newer officials".
I understand that the caliber of girl's ball is different from region to region, but please, the girl's deserve the highest quality of officials just as much as the boy's. I believe that Chuck, Rut, and the other very good officials that posted, NEED to do these games. They need your experience and knowledge.
BTW, the caliber of the girl's ball in my area is pretty good, lots of big schools.
My attitude is "A game is a game, and every game deserves the best officials calling it". JMHO

Oatmealqueen: My Michigan friend tells me that your state will be switching to boys/girls same season soon. You will soon see what we "same season states" are talking about as far as boys/girls game preference. There are definitely big politics and biases here regarding being on the boys and/or girls side, and who moves up, and who gets games, etc. Hopefully there will be good organization, and perhaps separate game days for girls and boys games in Michigan. Otherwise, you can expect many unhappy refs when they get assigned girls games instead of boys games. It will be interesting to see how the ball bounces, so to speak.

[Blackhawk357]

We just finished our first "same season" year here in Montana. Our games, boys and girls, are assigned by the same groups. The State Office told us it has to be that way under Title 9, and locally, the "Ridgeway Settlement". Officials should be assigned a somewhat equal number of boys and girls games.

Blackhawk

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Blackhawk357
Officials should be assigned a somewhat equal number of boys and girls games.

I'd be interested in hearing how it works out. At the girl's 4A tourney here in Oregon this year, I overheard some of the tourney refs who were watching, joking about how they hadn't had a girls' game in five years, and this was such a big adjustment. I gotta admit, it annoyed me. What to do about it, I'm waiting to see.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by oatmealqueen
I believe that Chuck, Rut, and the other very good officials that posted, NEED to do these games. They need your experience and knowledge.
BTW, the caliber of the girl's ball in my area is pretty good, lots of big schools.
My attitude is "A game is a game, and every game deserves the best officials calling it". JMHO

What I do not understand and will never understand, why do I or other officials have to do what you do to be happy? So you assume that your area has better girl's basketball than mine, a claim I never made. And because of the greatness of your area of basketball is going to somehow change my mind on what is girl's basketball. NOOOOOOTTTTT!!!!!

Sorry to disappoint but I have a preference. I have attended the Big Ten Men's Tournament for the past 4 years no matter where it was located. I have never attended the Women's side of the Big Ten Tournament, there is a reason that is. I do not enjoy the game. I would rather sit and home a play March Madness 2003 and waste (yes I said waste) my time trying to watch a game I do not enjoy. Every game does not deserve the best officials, but the best officials that want to be there. I cannot do a service to a game I do not enjoy on many levels. But we live in this PC world and think that everyone has the same likes. I know many officials that have no desire to officiate Men's or Boy's basketball, I never try to suggests they need to give up girl's ball to do a boy's game.

Peace

[Hawks Coach]

OMC- well stated, but don't be surprised by this response. Last winter when I defended girls ball, I was accused of being PC and had my sexual orientation questioned tby this same individual. Neither was warranted by anything I said, just goes to show the depth of the feeling about girl's ball.

jrut - nobody said anything about liking it. What was said is that there are many extremely talented girls teams and that they deserve top quality refereeing. Unfortunately, the bias against girls ball that is so prevalent in officials means that the girls frequently must settle for second best (or third or fourth or fifth best). They deserve better than that, and the HS associations should ensure that all athletes under their purview get equal and fair treatment. If that means you have to do a distasteful chore of reffing girls varsity to get your boys games, so be it. But I like the policy that demands that varsity refs do both sides.

The NCAA distinction is a different animal altogether. The competition for jobs on both sides ensure that the quality is pretty high, especially for the big games in the big conferences. And the rules for NCAA women vs men have some substantial differences, so specialization at that level makes sense.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by oatmealqueen
I was taken aback by comments such as "subjected to" and "training ground for newer officials".

OMQ, I certainly did not intend to give offense by my comments. But how can you be taken aback by the fact that lower quality games are used as a training ground for higher quality games? Do 7th/8th grade teams expect to get the best varsity officials? No. Those are games that are given to less experienced officials to prepare them for high school ball. Do NBDL teams get Jake O'Donnell or Hue Hollins or Violet Palmer on their games? No, b/c even tho the games are just as important to the players (probably moreso, since they don't have huge guaranteed contracts) the quality of ball is lower and it's a perfect place to see if less experienced officials can handle the game.

This is not a girls ball/boys ball thing. It's just the way it's done.

I understand that the caliber of girl's ball is different from region to region, but please, the girl's deserve the highest quality of officials just as much as the boy's.

They might deserve it, but they don't need it in my area. I'm not saying that some officials are "too good" to do the games. (I still do my share of 7th/8th grade games.) But if you've got the top two boys teams playing on the same night as the top two girls teams, then in my area, the better officials need to be at the boys game.

I believe that Chuck, Rut, and the other very good officials that posted, NEED to do these games. They need your experience and knowledge.

With all due respect, OMQ, and I mean that sincerely, I don't need to do girls games in western MA. I'm not going to improve my officiating skills or be challenged mentally in 99% of the girls games that are played.

Do the teams need my experience? Maybe. But the game would go just as smoothly -- most of the time -- if it were officiated by two very good JV boys officials.

Now, please, please, please, do not take my comments to be more than they are. I am not denigrating young women, or minimizing the importance of women's sports. When I work a HS girls game (I did 9 this season, including a regional semi-final playoff game), the girls get 100% of my effort and attention. I still hustle, my mechanics are still sharp, I treat the girls with nothing but respect.

All I am saying is that, most of the time, where I live and ref, the highest quality officials are not required to ensure a smooth-running and fairly officiated girls contest.

Chuck

[Hawks Coach]

Chuck
I find your arguments pretty compelling. I guess it really depends on the depth of your officiating pool. I saw two guys that can't handle a MS girls game get assigned to ref two of the top 4A girls teams last season. The game was very poorly handled, a typical outing for this pair. Inconsistent calls, poor handling of the post play, a lot of ball-watching, etc. I have watched them for years and they were at their best that night, which still ain't too pretty. The game was well-played, came down to the last shot, and the girls deserved better officials. You ar etalikng about two of the top ten teams in the DC metro area.

If you have good enough JV officials that can and will (or must) handle these games, give them these games. But I have read quotes saying that refs would rather do MS boys than HS girls, which shortchanges the HS girls. They work too hard at this to get sub-standard officiating.

[ChuckElias]

Coach, I always appreciate the fact that you take my comments as intended. That's a great "people person" trait. Thank you.

Here comes a very badly worded sentence (caveat Juulius ). Just b/c girls games can be handled adequately with less experienced officials in my area, doesn't mean that you should have to tolerate unqualified officials in your own games repeatedly. If you are getting officials that can't handle your games, that is the fault of either the assigning authority, or of the officials' association. They should be ensuring that they have a sufficient number of qualified officials to cover the games that need them. That's a recruiting/training/evaluating issue.

I also want to make clear that I would welcome the chance to officiate high quality girls high school ball. There's just not a lot of it around me.

Chuck

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
OM

jrut - nobody said anything about liking it. What was said is that there are many extremely talented girls teams and that they deserve top quality refereeing. Unfortunately, the bias against girls ball that is so prevalent in officials means that the girls frequently must settle for second best (or third or fourth or fifth best). They deserve better than that, and the HS associations should ensure that all athletes under their purview get equal and fair treatment. If that means you have to do a distasteful chore of reffing girls varsity to get your boys games, so be it. But I like the policy that demands that varsity refs do both sides.

You cannot make officials do anything. You either are not going to have officials at all if you do this. In my area if I work both boy's and girl's games, I am almost working every single night. Now I do not have a wife or kids to contend with. You cannot make a father that wants to watch his daughter play ball, officiate on nights that only girls play. If girl's are getting the short end of the stick by officials making a choice, I really do not see how you are going to make them change that. So I do not know what world you are living in to think anyone can make anyone officiate something they do not want to do. I do not think you really thought this through.

Peace

[Hawks Coach]

jrut
I do think I thought it through, and I think that Blackhawk's state has thought it through and come to the conclusion that I recommended. I can see granting an exception for an official who can demonstrate that he or she has a daughter playing ball (or a son for that matter) where there would be a direct conflict between their kid's games and the games they would be assigned. The rule is simple - you want to do boys, you get some girls games as well. Assigners give varsity assignments versus varsity boys and varsity girls. I would be interested in knowing how many officials in Blackhawks area quit when forced to do girls games. my bet is it wasn't many.

[oatmealqueen]

Originally posted by JRutledge

What I do not understand and will never understand, why do I or other officials have to do what you do to be happy? So you assume that your area has better girl's basketball than mine, a claim I never made. And because of the greatness of your area of basketball is going to somehow change my mind on what is girl's basketball. NOOOOOOTTTTT!!!!!

Sorry to disappoint but I have a preference. I have attended the Big Ten Men's Tournament for the past 4 years no matter where it was located. I have never attended the Women's side of the Big Ten Tournament, there is a reason that is. I do not enjoy the game. I would rather sit and home a play March Madness 2003 and waste (yes I said waste) my time trying to watch a game I do not enjoy. Every game does not deserve the best officials, but the best officials that want to be there. I cannot do a service to a game I do not enjoy on many levels. But we live in this PC world and think that everyone has the same likes. I know many officials that have no desire to officiate Men's or Boy's basketball, I never try to suggests they need to give up girl's ball to do a boy's game.

Peace

Rut..
I was trying to give you a compliment, and you inserted way more verbage than I intended. I guess that'll teach me.

[oatmealqueen]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

OMQ, I certainly did not intend to give offense by my comments. But how can you be taken aback by the fact that lower quality games are used as a training ground for higher quality games? Do 7th/8th grade teams expect to get the best varsity officials? No. Those are games that are given to less experienced officials to prepare them for high school ball. Do NBDL teams get Jake O'Donnell or Hue Hollins or Violet Palmer on their games? No, b/c even tho the games are just as important to the players (probably moreso, since they don't have huge guaranteed contracts) the quality of ball is lower and it's a perfect place to see if less experienced officials can handle the game.

This is not a girls ball/boys ball thing. It's just the way it's done.

They might deserve it, but they don't need it in my area. I'm not saying that some officials are "too good" to do the games. (I still do my share of 7th/8th grade games.) But if you've got the top two boys teams playing on the same night as the top two girls teams, then in my area, the better officials need to be at the boys game.

With all due respect, OMQ, and I mean that sincerely, I don't need to do girls games in western MA. I'm not going to improve my officiating skills or be challenged mentally in 99% of the girls games that are played.

Do the teams need my experience? Maybe. But the game would go just as smoothly -- most of the time -- if it were officiated by two very good JV boys officials.

Now, please, please, please, do not take my comments to be more than they are. I am not denigrating young women, or minimizing the importance of women's sports. When I work a HS girls game (I did 9 this season, including a regional semi-final playoff game), the girls get 100% of my effort and attention. I still hustle, my mechanics are still sharp, I treat the girls with nothing but respect.

All I am saying is that, most of the time, where I live and ref, the highest quality officials are not required to ensure a smooth-running and fairly officiated girls contest.

Chuck

Chuck,
I am not offended by your comments at all. It was my way of giving you a compliment, as I feel that ALL games deserve the best officials. I also may have misread the thread about 'training ground'. Certainly there are many games that should be used for that.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Just for the record, I wouldn't mind doing girls games all the time. On another thread, someone commented about nobody wanting to do girls all the time, but I'm not nobody and I do want to do girls games all the time

I was the one that made the remark you refer to above. It was an idle remark, (I make a lot of those) with no offense intended to anyone. My ignorance on a variety of issues continues to amaze me. I did not know that they had separate seasons for boys and girls anywhere. Around here, (Louisiana) the seasons are the same, so the vast majority of assignments are for 2 games a night, 1 boys and 1 girls.
It is sometimes true, especially in jr. high, that it is a huge relief when the girls game is over and you can get to the boys game. I have found myself making parallels in ability levels: Those 6th grade boys were as good as those 8th grade girls, etc. BUT, there are exceptions. You can have a high quality, competitive girls game and when it is followed by a lousy boys game, that also can seem to take forever. I have been to the state tournament for both boys and girls here in LA, and found most of the games to be very enjoyable at both, but overall the girls tournament was the more pleasant of the two. The reason? Crowds. For the girls you could drive up shortly before game time, walk right in with little or no waiting, and get an excellent seat. The one time we attended the Top 28 at Lafayette, Saturday was a split session, with a break. (go out and pay again) It took over an hour shuffling along in a solid mass of humanity, to get back in and fight for a nosebleed seat. The night session was a sellout, for the first time ever they said, and I believe a good many people were turned away from the 5A game.
The point of all this is that the fans apparently prefer the boys games, so I don't blame officials who do as well, but I think any true fan of the game should be able to appreciate a well played girls game.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias


I also want to make clear that I would welcome the chance to officiate high quality girls high school ball. There's just not a lot of it around me.

Chuck

Is there an explanation for this? Is it just a dip in a cycle? Is there so much emphasis on the boys game that the girls game pales by comparison and cannot attract quality coaching? ($ shortage?)

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
jrut
I do think I thought it through, and I think that Blackhawk's state has thought it through and come to the conclusion that I recommended. I can see granting an exception for an official who can demonstrate that he or she has a daughter playing ball (or a son for that matter) where there would be a direct conflict between their kid's games and the games they would be assigned. The rule is simple - you want to do boys, you get some girls games as well. Assigners give varsity assignments versus varsity boys and varsity girls. I would be interested in knowing how many officials in Blackhawks area quit when forced to do girls games. my bet is it wasn't many.

This would all be fine and dandy if assignments were given out like you suggest. But in my area we have Boy's assignors and then Girl's assignors. And in that rare case that an assignor has both, he does not request you to do one or the other. And not much different than what goes on in Chuck's area, the younger less experienced officials get opportunities at the Girl's side much quicker then the Boy's side. It is way easier to get hired to do Girl's varsity game than it is to get hired to do a Boy's varsity. It is just the way it is. And if assignors resorted to that tactic, they might not get as many quality officials trying to work for them. They might also get run out of those conferences for putting officials on both sides of the ball. Just because at the College level the mechanics are different and the rules are different, do not think that the expectations are the same because it is HS ball.

Peace