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Old Wed Mar 12, 2003, 11:29am
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Last night in a 4A boys playoff game, a Portland team received a technical for dunking during warmups. The opponent made one of two free throws to start the game. The team that was penalized lost the game by one point.
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Old Wed Mar 12, 2003, 11:46am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Last night in a 4A boys playoff game, a Portland team received a technical for dunking during warmups. The opponent made one of two free throws to start the game. The team that was penalized lost the game by one point.
...Tough lesson learned.
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Old Wed Mar 12, 2003, 11:47am
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I bet the overofficiousness of the officiating crew created a restrictive environment that did not allow the second place team to play their game and hindered the flow of the aformentioned contest.
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Old Wed Mar 12, 2003, 11:58am
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I'm surpised someone didn't accuse the officals of deciding the outcome of the game with their whistle instead of letting the players decide the game.
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Old Wed Mar 12, 2003, 12:26pm
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Just FYI - the losing team had scored a layup with 4.2 seconds left to take a two point lead. Following a timeout, the winning team inbounded, made two long passes and one of their players banked a three in with the horn going off while the ball was in the air. It was an incredible finish.
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Old Wed Mar 12, 2003, 12:57pm
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Must have been the Jefferson/South Medford game...what was the reaction of the Jeff coach when informed of the pre-game T???
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Old Wed Mar 12, 2003, 03:23pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockyroad
Must have been the Jefferson/South Medford game...what was the reaction of the Jeff coach when informed of the pre-game T???
I know in the past, they have planned this, since it gets that intimidation factor into the game with very little cost. I know this, because I reffed them a couple of times during the summer, and they told me it was part of their game. Interesting strategy, since it didn't work last night.
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Old Thu Mar 13, 2003, 10:28am
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The ebb and flow of a contest frequently determines the outcome, and scoreboard dictates strategy and player's mental apporach to each possession. So two FTs early in a game do not win or lose the game, even if the final margin is 1 point. Two FTs with no time left, that's a different story.
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Old Thu Mar 13, 2003, 10:45am
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Are you saying....

Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
The ebb and flow of a contest frequently determines the outcome, and scoreboard dictates strategy and player's mental apporach to each possession. So two FTs early in a game do not win or lose the game, even if the final margin is 1 point. Two FTs with no time left, that's a different story.
....that points scored at the beginning or middle of a game have a different point value? If you lose by two while going 0 for 10 from line, what would be your message to the team?

Would it be, "Darn it Charley !!! If you would have only made two more steals for breakaway dunks we would have won !!!

or would it be..

Darn it guys we HAVE to do a better job at the line. Our poor free throw shooting just cost us a game.
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Old Thu Mar 13, 2003, 11:03am
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First, my message to my team and my understanding of the game frequently vary. And 0-10 from the line is about 7-8 points short throughout a game, as opposed to starting out down 2-0 and losing by one. It is a consistent boost to the other team and a consistent negative mentally for the team missing the FTs - not the same at all as the pregame tech. All points lost are not equal from a coaching perspective.

While all points count the same, the game is played differently depending on the score. A team that is down 1 or 2 will behave differently than a team that is tied, or a team that is up 1 or 2 with 30 seconds to play. And throughout a game, players mental approach to each possession is different depending on the score and what has just occurred. And if this team likes the T at the beginning of the game, who is to say that they didn't have a more effective first quarter based on starting out down 2-0 (not my strategy, but we all have our own ways )

All points count equal mathematically speaking, but in terms of outcome in a close game, 2 points with 30 seconds left in the game mean a whole lot more than 2 points with 8:00 left in the 1st quarter. I will let a team run a bit more on us in the first quarter than in the fourth, knowing we can make it up (and having the confidence in my team that we will make it up - we always have this year). I will squelch a run immediately in the 2nd half of a game, because there is little margin for error and less time to deal with the consequences.
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Old Thu Mar 13, 2003, 11:41am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach

All points count equal mathematically speaking, but in terms of outcome in a close game, 2 points with 30 seconds left in the game mean a whole lot more than 2 points with 8:00 left in the 1st quarter.
[/B]
May I submit that the only reason those points mean more to you is your own stress level. Think about it.

At the beginning of the game your stress level is pretty low. You've got the whole game ahead of you with plenty of time to make up any ground on the other team. No players in foul trouble, plenty of fouls to give. Your have your full complement of coaching tools at your disposal.

Late in the game much different story. You stress level is pretty high. Your best shooter is in foul trouble. Your big player has got 4 fouls and their big player has two and is pretty hard to stop. Time is running out and your down by two.

I can't tell you how many games I've seen and been involved with where a team loses by 1 or 2 while going 5 for 25 from the line and it ends up being perceived by a coach/fans that the officials have "Cost them the Game" based on their end-of-game point of view. If they would have went 10 for 25 from the line instead they would have won regardless of when those points were scored.

The scoreboard knows NO stress level. It only knows points, regardless of when those points were scored.
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Old Thu Mar 13, 2003, 12:15pm
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I never said that going 5 for 25 from the line doesn't cost you a game. It clearly does. We lost this weekend and the refs completely blew the end of the game, allowing a poorly run table to fail to operate the clock correctly and failing to track the time themselves (a long story!). However, we lost because we put ourselves in that situation of being up 1 with 3 seconds to play by shooting absolutely atrociously, both from the field and from the line. When my players complained about the botched timing, I let them know why they really lost - because they put themselves in a position to lose.

The refs did not cost us the game, and that is not where I was going with the argument I was making. But you can extend my argument on the importance of a single basket to refereeing. A single late game major error by refs is far more meaningful than the same single error in the first quarter, in terms of game outcome. A team will not have the opportunity to recover from the mistake if it happens with 0:00 on the clock - it will if it happens in the first quarter.

You are taking an argument about two points and trying to make it mean something altogether different, involving multiple possessions, multiple errors or poor plays, and many more points than two. I have been in this game a long time, and two points early is not the same as two points late. Twenty points lost throughout a game are far more meaningful than two points lost late, but that is a different issue altogether than the one I was discussing. And we agree on that latter point.
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Old Thu Mar 13, 2003, 01:14pm
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Cool Ficticious Scenario

Coach and Substitue Teacher standing around the water cooler in the Teacher's room after that tough loss last Saturday night.

Teacher: "Gee Coach, too bad about your loss last Saturday."

Coach: "Yeah, that rotten call for dunking in warm-ups cost us the game."

Game Stats---FT 3 for 12---FG Shooting %25---1 bench T---Fouls A/18 B/18

RD
P.S. Nah...that conversation would NEVER happen.





[Edited by RookieDude on Mar 13th, 2003 at 12:17 PM]
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Old Thu Mar 13, 2003, 01:39pm
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With 15 years coaching and 14 years reffing, I agree whole-heartedly with Hawks. Certainly, my stress level, as a coach, changes thoroughout the game; definitely depending on the score and my team's mental outlook. Up by 2 with 3 seconds left and thinking 'we can't hold this' as opposed to 'we can do this' does come into play. As a ref, I'd be lying if I said I don't notice the score of a game more in the second half than the first. Yes, 2 is 2 and you only need 1 to win....as well as lose.
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Old Thu Mar 13, 2003, 02:43pm
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A wise man once told me.......

Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
All points count equal mathematically speaking, but in terms of outcome in a close game, 2 points with 30 seconds left in the game mean a whole lot more than 2 points with 8:00 left in the 1st quarter.
......to "Take care of the little things and the big things will take care of themselves"

For an official the little things are to make sure you're hustling, in position, have a good command of the rules, good game awareness and be consistant with your calls from the first quarter to the last shot of overtime. Those little things will make most any game a good game and ensure a fair outcome for both teams.

For a coach the little things might be to take advantage of every scoring opportunity be it early or late. You don't have to worry about that last second shot to win or tie if you've taken advantage of all opportunities up to that point.

I seen a lot of coaches that have spent a huge amount of time putting together tons of plays (it's evident in the teams execution on the court) while they shoot horribly from the line. A team becomes good at what it practices most. A little thing wouldn't you agree?

Which is an easier shot....an uncontested free throw or a pressure-packed last second shot with a hand in the players face?

By the way Hawks Coach, I always appreciate your imput on the board whether I agree or not. It's always well thought out.
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