Calling jump balls

Back In The Saddle · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 10, 2003, 04:02pm

I've done enough games now (20-30) that I've had a lot of questions arise. Through this board and a lot of study, I've found answers for most of them. However, there are a few that linger, and I hope you'll be patient with me as I ask a few more "newbie" questions

When is a jump ball a jump ball? How long do two opposing players have to be tied up before you call it? Do you call it as soon as you can tell they're tied up? Do you give them a second to see if one of them can wrest it away?

And what about fouls? I'm usually so busy trying to figure out if it's a jump ball that I don't watch for fouls. What SHOULD I be looking for in regards to contact in this situation?

ChuckElias · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 10, 2003, 04:10pm

Bits, both of your questions are answered by your "signature":

Quote:

Good judgement comes from experience. Experience? Well...that comes from poor judgement.

The technical answer is that you call a held ball when two opponents are holding the ball so tightly that neither can secure sole possession without undue roughness. The real world answer is that you have to see it. You see enough of these situations and eventually you will know -- well, at least you get a "feel" for -- when neither player is going to come up with it.

As far as fouls go, nobody gets to jump on top of another player, even when the ball is loose on the floor. Nobody gets to pull somebody else's arm off of the ball. Nobody gets to push (by extending the arms) another player out of the way to get to the ball.

I think that as you see more plays, you'll start to have a feel for when you need to kill the play to prevent that "undue roughness".

Chuck

som44 · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 10, 2003, 05:01pm

IMHO i prefer to call the jump ball earlier than latter-as soon as i think it is tied up i whistle--i have seen to many situations when it is called late that escalate into something that could have been prevented--i think this is really true in high school girls BB

Camron Rust · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 10, 2003, 05:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

As far as fouls go, nobody gets to jump on top of another player, even when the ball is loose on the floor. Nobody gets to pull somebody else's arm off of the ball. Nobody gets to push (by extending the arms) another player out of the way to get to the ball.

Chuck

Here's a good illustration of this:

In the Bleachers, by Steve Moore

These sports comics, not all basketball releated, are often hilarious.

Blackhawk357 · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 10, 2003, 05:52pm

This is one of my personal pet peeves.

IMHO if a player is trying to protect the ball after a rebound, or any other time for that matter, there are very few times that another player can tie the ball up without having illegal contact, however slight. This IMHO is advantagous to the player trying to tie the ball up,(either taking possession, or changing the AP arrow to his/her team) therefore a foul. If they are not protecting the ball, well that's another story.

If you give that player a held ball in the first 4 minutes of a game you will have that type of reaching the entire game. Now, if it's a foul in the first 4 minutes, they will (most of the time) keep their hands to themselves the rest of the game. som44 is correct, it is a bigger problem in the girls game.

So, what I watch for is weather or not the player in control, is protecting the ball.

nine01c · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 10, 2003, 08:56pm

These sports comics, not all basketball releated, are often hilarious. [/QUOTE]

Hey Cameron: thanks for the link to the sports comics. Now I can further drive my family crazy by putting up a new one on our wallpaper each day.

DrakeM · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 07:00am

I watched several games over the past week where a shot was initially blocked, then knocked loose as a result of the block, and when the player came back to the floor with it, the crews called, "jump ball". How can it be when it was knocked loose? A block, followed by a loose ball is NOT A JUMP BALL! If both players return to the floor with it, call a jump. If if comes loose at all during the sequence, PLAY ON!

Mregor · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 08:40am

Quote:

Originally posted by Blackhawk357
This is one of my personal pet peeves.

IMHO if a player is trying to protect the ball after a rebound, or any other time for that matter, there are very few times that another player can tie the ball up without having illegal contact, however slight. This IMHO is advantagous to the player trying to tie the ball up,(either taking possession, or changing the AP arrow to his/her team) therefore a foul. If they are not protecting the ball, well that's another story.

If you give that player a held ball in the first 4 minutes of a game you will have that type of reaching the entire game. Now, if it's a foul in the first 4 minutes, they will (most of the time) keep their hands to themselves the rest of the game. som44 is correct, it is a bigger problem in the girls game.

So, what I watch for is weather or not the player in control, is protecting the ball.

I totally agree with your statement. Jump balls interrupt the flow of the game and encourage playing defense with the hands instead of the feet. I'd rather call a foul than a jump ball the majority of the time.

Mregor

RecRef · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 08:53am

Quote:

Originally posted by DrakeM
I watched several games over the past week where a shot was initially blocked, then knocked loose as a result of the block, and when the player came back to the floor with it, the crews called, "jump ball". How can it be when it was knocked loose? A block, followed by a loose ball is NOT A JUMP BALL! If both players return to the floor with it, call a jump. If if comes loose at all during the sequence, PLAY ON!

So that would make 4.25.2 in the Fed case book incorrect?

4.25.2 SITUATION: A1 jumps to try for goal or to pass the ball. B1 leaps or reaches and is able to put his/her hands on the ball and keep A1 from releasing it. A1: (a) returns to the floor with the ball; or (b) is unable to control the ball and it drops to the floor. Ruling: A held ball results immediately in (a) and (b) when airborne A1 is prevented from releasing the ball to pass or try for goal.

Jurassic Referee · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 09:08am

Quote:

Originally posted by RecRef

Quote:

Originally posted by DrakeM
I watched several games over the past week where a shot was initially blocked, then knocked loose as a result of the block, and when the player came back to the floor with it, the crews called, "jump ball". How can it be when it was knocked loose? A block, followed by a loose ball is NOT A JUMP BALL! If both players return to the floor with it, call a jump. If if comes loose at all during the sequence, PLAY ON!

So that would make 4.25.2 in the Fed case book incorrect?

4.25.2 SITUATION: A1 jumps to try for goal or to pass the ball. B1 leaps or reaches and is able to put his/her hands on the ball and keep A1 from releasing it. A1: (a) returns to the floor with the ball; or (b) is unable to control the ball and it drops to the floor. Ruling: A held ball results immediately in (a) and (b) when airborne A1 is prevented from releasing the ball to pass or try for goal.

You're talking about a completely different situation than Drake is. In Drake's sitch,the ball comes loose in the air.In your sitch,it doesn't come loose.Drake's sitch is legal as per casebook play 4.43.3SitA(a).It's the difference between stopping a player from releasing the ball and actually knocking the ball out of his hands.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 11th, 2003 at 08:11 AM]

DrakeM · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 09:09am

I'm not going to argue the NF interp. Just merely stating what is obvious. If a ball is blocked and knocked loose, it is a BLOCK not a jump ball. So yes, I would disagree with NF interp.

DrakeM · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 09:10am

Thanks JR.

Jurassic Referee · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 09:47am

Quote:

Originally posted by DrakeM
Thanks JR.

Welcome,Drake.

The point that you made was a good 'un.Part of our training is stressing that exact same point to new officials.

RecRef · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 09:50am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
QUOTE]You're talking about a completely different situation than Drake is. In Drake's sitch,the ball comes loose in the air.In your sitch,it doesn't come loose.Drake's sitch is legal as per casebook play 4.43.3SitA(a).It's the difference between stopping a player from releasing the ball and actually knocking the ball out of his hands.

Key for me is how long the then is in Drakes post. If the blocking hand goes through one continues motion than Ill go with Drakes interpretation but if there is any stopping than Ill go with 4.25.2.

[Edited by RecRef on Mar 11th, 2003 at 09:05 AM]

Rich · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 11, 2003, 09:56am

I'm of the opposite philosophy as some people here. I want the ball to be really tied up before I'm blowing a whistle.

Too many times this season I saw other officials blow a held ball (mainly in girls' games, where there were players NEAR the ball, on the floor diving) when the ball wasn't really tied up. That discourages aggressive play, which isn't why I'm being hired.

Rich