Shoulda....Coulda....Woulda....

[TXMATTHEW05]

11-13 Boys Recreational Game. Pretty close game, working with a partner that is slightly reluctant to blow the whistle. Middle of the third quarter.

Timeout for white. My partner and I are standing under the goal opposite the bench of the white team. White coach leaves the bench, proceeds to my partner and I, and then starts griping about how we aren't changing possession for jump balls. I tell him we're doing it right and he needs to go back to his bench. Whines a little bit more and walks off. Should have T'd him? Could have T'd him?

Late in the 4th quarter - maybe 30 seconds left. Black has a full court press going, they are down by perhaps 5. I'm lead, standing at half-court helping my partner out. White #5 does a HARD shove into the back of Black #23. Double whistle. I already made the intentional foul signal, but my partner proceeded to report the foul as a personal.

There was a high school official that was doing the books (he was my original partner, but pulled a muscle during the game, so he did the books). He told me after the game that we could have tossed him.

My question - should I have stepped in and "overruled" my partner? It was intentional, there is no doubt in my mind. It wouldn't have been so bad, but they could have possibly tied or even won the game. Should I have stepped in? Could I have stepped in?

Opinions appreciated.

[Edited by TXMATTHEW05 on Mar 1st, 2003 at 09:32 AM]

[Jurassic Referee]

If you thought that the foul was intentional,you should have gone to your partner BEFORE he reported the foul.Let him know what you saw on the play,and give him your thoughts.You both had a foul,but you had different types of fouls-so together you have to decide whose call it should be.It's usually the trail's call on the press if it's in his primary.Neither official can ever over-rule the other,so you guys have to decide what the call is gonna end up being.

[Mark Padgett]

Not that it has anything to do with your point (my posts rarely do), but I'm just curious about a few things.

1) If white was up by 5, why were they pressing?
2) If white was ahead, why would their player commit an intentional foul?

Did you have the teams reversed?

Now - to your post. Absolutely, you should have gone to your partner and told him you had an intentional foul. In fact, I would have even gone so far as to tell him I had the first whistle. If he was reluctant to make the call as an intentional foul, ask him point blank what element of an intentional foul was missing (assuming you had the teams reversed, of course).

[TXMATTHEW05]

JURASSIC:

I would have, but he turned to the table to report it the instant he blew the whistle. The thing is - this league I'm in really doesn't make it a requirement you know the mechanics and such. It's actually quite annoying, having a partner that doesn't know position, doesn't dress appropriately, doesn't know the hand signals, etc. - so he probably didn't even give the double whistle a second thought. Even though I was lead, I probably had the best angle of it, since he was shoved more so towards the goal, so that my partner couldn't actually see the physical push, just the result.

MARK:

I made a mistake - BLACK was running the press, yes, because they just scored and white was inbouding the ball. However, White #5 was the one who shoved like he did. Sorry about that.

The intentional foul wasn't intended to stop the clock - I believe it was just a kid that was pissed off. White #? was inbouding the ball, and then White #5 did this God awful shove into Black 23, nearly knocking him down. That's why the official keeping the score said we probably could have gotten away with calling a flagrant personal.

In retrospect, I should have blown my whistle again, summoned my partner over, and discussed it. I've spent years reading the rule book, and I am one of only 3 in this league that dresses professionally and is highly knowledgable (sp?) of the rules. In the end, I probably could have gotten it deemed intentional, but I just didn't step in, and that I know regret.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by TXMATTHEW05
11-13 Boys Recreational Game. Pretty close game, working with a partner that is slightly reluctant to blow the whistle. Middle of the third quarter.

Timeout for white. My partner and I are standing under the goal opposite the bench of the white team. White coach leaves the bench, proceeds to my partner and I, and then starts griping about how we aren't changing possession for jump balls. I tell him we're doing it right and he needs to go back to his bench. Whines a little bit more and walks off. Should have T'd him? Could have T'd him?


Opinions appreciated.

Mark already said what I was thinking as I read this - in fact Mark is so cool I stole his gif for my own sig - so I'll comment on this part. What you should have done was tell him he needs to follow you off the court & back to his bench, in a matter of fact manner: "coach, let's get off the court, you know you can't come out here" as you walk him back. Resist the urge to put your arm around him as you do this, a lesson I learned the hard way. Once you get him back to the bench just smile, nod your head up & down and tell him you have the arrow right so far but thank him for his concern. Then turn & walk away. If he follows you back out take care of business.

BTW, JR is pretty cool too and he has some good comments as well.

[schlegs]

I feel if you were in position to make the call and clearly saw it as an intentional foul then you should of overruled your partner and had the intentional foul called.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by schlegs
I feel if you were in position to make the call and clearly saw it as an intentional foul then you should of overruled your partner and had the intentional foul called.

Unfortunately,the rulebook specifically says that you cannot overrule your partner in cases like this.You can try to talk him into changing his mind,but if he's adamant about staying with the call,you just have to suck it up and go along with him.You should look like you're supporting him when he does make the final call,too.You can argue it out later when nobody can hear or see you.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by TXMATTHEW05
11-13 Boys Recreational Game. Pretty close game, working with a partner that is slightly reluctant to blow the whistle. Middle of the third quarter.

Timeout for white. My partner and I are standing under the goal opposite the bench of the white team. White coach leaves the bench, proceeds to my partner and I, and then starts griping about how we aren't changing possession for jump balls. I tell him we're doing it right and he needs to go back to his bench. Whines a little bit more and walks off. Should have T'd him? Could have T'd him?

Late in the 4th quarter - maybe 30 seconds left. White has a full court press going, they are up by perhaps 5. I'm lead, standing at half-court helping my partner out. White #5 does a HARD shove into the back of Black #23. Double whistle. I already made the intentional foul signal, but my partner proceeded to report the foul as a personal.

There was a high school official that was doing the books (he was my original partner, but pulled a muscle during the game, so he did the books). He told me after the game that we could have tossed him.

My question - should I have stepped in and "overruled" my partner? It was intentional, there is no doubt in my mind. It wouldn't have been so bad, but they could have possibly tied or even won the game. Should I have stepped in? Could I have stepped in?

Opinions appreciated.

I don't think it's neccesary to toss the coach in the case of him approaching you during the TO. A T could have been called, but then again, I would have to be there to exactly how everything happened.

Yes, you should have stepped in and ruled the foul as an intentional foul.

Mike

[mick]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
If you thought that the foul was intentional,you should have gone to your partner BEFORE he reported the foul.Let him know what you saw on the play,and give him your thoughts.You both had a foul,but you had different types of fouls-so together you have to decide whose call it should be.It's usually the trail's call on the press if it's in his primary.Neither official can ever over-rule the other,so you guys have to decide what the call is gonna end up being.

JV Boys tonight; 2-man. I'm Trail.
A 3/4 court pass ended up 6' in front of my partner where A1 and B1 were going after the previously tipped pass.

There was some incidental contact, and then I saw (65' away) B1 (behind) grab A1's arm and hold and twist a little too much. Partner called foul on B1. I did not blow my Fox cuz he was there and had something.
While he settled the players, I jogged up and suggested, "If you've got an Intentional, I'll back you." He said "No, just a paeronal foul."
Well, nothing escalated, so I guess the common foul was good nuff.
mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mick
[/B]

JV Boys tonight; 2-man. I'm Trail.
A 3/4 court pass ended up 6' in front of my partner where A1 and B1 were going after the previously tipped pass.

There was some incidental contact, and then I saw (65' away) B1 (behind) grab A1's arm and hold and twist a little too much. Partner called foul on B1. I did not blow my Fox cuz he was there and had something.
While he settled the players, I jogged up and suggested, "If you've got an Intentional, I'll back you." He said "No, just a paeronal foul."
Well, nothing escalated, so I guess the common foul was good nuff. [/B][/QUOTE]Textbook way to handle the situation,mick.You offered to help,but your partner gets the final sayso.If there was an observer/evaluator in the stands,they would know what you were doing and why,too.

[mick]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
If there was an observer/evaluator in the stands,they would know what you were doing and why,too.

If there was an observer/evaluator in the stands, it wouldn't have been U.P. here.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by TXMATTHEW05
The thing is - this league I'm in really doesn't make it a requirement you know the mechanics and such. It's actually quite annoying, having a partner that doesn't know position, doesn't dress appropriately, doesn't know the hand signals, etc. - so he probably didn't even give the double whistle a second thought.

I've spent years reading the rule book, and I am one of only 3 in this league that dresses professionally and is highly knowledgable (sp?) of the rules. In the end, I probably could have gotten it deemed intentional, but I just didn't step in, and that I know regret.

If you're unhappy about the way the league runs its reffing situation, you should just get out. It sounds like this partner was a little weak, but unless I read something wrong, he was an emergency sub. In that case, you just suck it up and make the best of it. But I'd really question why I'm in this league, if I don't like any possible partners except one or two.

I've been the weak partner in certain situations, and I just don't think you're doing any one any favors condescending to their inabilities. Let them have their little informalities, and find something you're more comfortable with. Or get on the board and "fix" things.

[TXMATTHEW05]

rainmaker:

I don't leave because I like officiating too much, and I know this league needs help. I'm only 15, so many leagues don't think I'm mature enough or responsible enough to be officiating. The league just sent me an evaluation form, and I said that we need to have a meeting at the beginning of the year and hold a mini "rules clinic," per se.

An emergency sub, yeah, but he's still a referee (he was reffing the games the next court over). Don't get me wrong, I like everybody I work with - a lot - but I don't think they realize the importance of mechanics and court position, that's all.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by TXMATTHEW05
rainmaker:

I don't leave because I like officiating too much, and I know this league needs help. I'm only 15, so many leagues don't think I'm mature enough or responsible enough to be officiating. The league just sent me an evaluation form, and I said that we need to have a meeting at the beginning of the year and hold a mini "rules clinic," per se.

An emergency sub, yeah, but he's still a referee (he was reffing the games the next court over). Don't get me wrong, I like everybody I work with - a lot - but I don't think they realize the importance of mechanics and court position, that's all.

A lot of rec leagues are like that. You need to get Padgett to fly in and give them what for. His league DOES emphasize mechanics, court coverage, and rules. Oh, yeah, and presence. Gotta be fair to everyone...