Violation?

[PGCougar]

Well, thanks for clearing that up.... (ahem)

I guess I'll go to practice tonight and tell my kids that if they ever miss a pass behind the baseline, they'll be running lines until they can't suffer anymore. It seems so much simpler....

Sheesh!!!

[Edited by PGCougar on Mar 3rd, 2003 at 05:30 PM]

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
MTD,
I have a problem with your definition of a throw-in pass. I do not consider the OOB pass from A1 to A2 that subsequently gets away past the sideline to be a throw-in pass. Therefore, this pass is not subject to the restrictions set forth in the throw-in rules. Specifically, the provision about having to go directly into the court does not apply to this pass.
Likewise, if we are playing in a gym with lots of room between the endline and the back wall, if A1 tried to pass the ball to A2 who was standing several feet behind A1 and the pass was missed and never touched, I do not believe that this is a violation either. Team A still has whatever time remains of the five seconds to run down the ball and release it on a throw-in pass directly into the court.
Now I do agree with your statements on where the sidelines and the endlines end. I just think that even if the ball passes the plane of the sideline while OOB the throw-in team may still retreive it and complete a throw-in pass before the five seconds expire.
I believe that we must precisely state what we consider to be BEHIND the endline, in order to discuss this play further.

Lets look at your two plays separately. In both plays NFHS R7-S5-A7 allows for as few as one player and as many as five players from Team A to be on the out-of-bounds side of the end line at the same time during the throw-in. R7-S5-A7 also allows the players from Team A to pass the ball among themselves, but Team A is still subject R7-S6-A1. Behind the end line means just that. The end line ends where intersects with the sideline and the sideline ends where it intersects with the end line. For the sake of this argument lets confine Team A to only two players on the out-of-bounds side of the end line during the throw-in.

Play #1: A1 passes the ball to A2: a) The ball goes past A2, who never touches the ball, and the ball continues along the out-of-bounds side of the end line and goes past the intersection point of the sideline and the end line. Or b) A2 fumbles the pass, and the ball continues out-of-bounds and goes past the plane of the sideline. In both (a) and (b) Team A did not meet the requirements of R7-S6-A1 that require the ball to be passed directly onto the court such that it shall touch another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched. Therefore Team A has committed a throw-in violation.

Play #2: A1 passes the ball to A2: a) The ball goes past A2, who never touches the ball, and the ball strikes the wall behind the end line. Or b) A2 fumbles the pass, and the ball strikes the ball behind the end line. In both (a) and (b) Team A did not meet the requirements of R7-S6-A1 that require the ball to be passed directly onto the court such that it shall touch another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched. Therefore Team A has committed a throw-in violation.

[mplagrow]

In absence of other more specific rules covering this sitch, I have to agree with the violation as Mark is calling it. Otherwise, at what point is it out of play? What if the gym doors are open and it flies out into the hall? You gonna stand there and count five will A2 chases the ball down past the concession stand?

[just another ref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Ladies and Gentlemen: PLEASE!! READ THE RULES BOOK!!

I will only reference the NFHS rules, but the NCAA MenÂ’s/WomenÂ’s and FIBA rules books agree.


R7-S5-A7: After a goal or awarded goal as in R7-S4-A3, the team not credited with the score shall make the throw-in from the end of the court where the goal was made and from any point outside the end line. Â….. Any player of the team may make a direct throw-in or he/she may pass the ball along the end line to a teammate(s) outside the boundary line.

As long as he returns to this designated area to make the actual throw in, I see nothing in this rule that says he can't go out and run around the block in the meantime.
If this were part of some elaborate scheme that I can't even imagine it would be one thing. But in a case like this where a bad pass causes the ball to go astray, or if a player jumps out to make a quick pass downcourt and fumbles the ball into a "dead zone" in the corner, if the 5 second count allows enough time for a recovery and a return to the legal area for the release of the throw-in, as far as I can see, this is a legal play.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by mplagrow
In absence of other more specific rules covering this sitch, I have to agree with the violation as Mark is calling it. Otherwise, at what point is it out of play? What if the gym doors are open and it flies out into the hall? You gonna stand there and count five will A2 chases the ball down past the concession stand?

I think you got it. Let the 5 second count take care of it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.


Lets look at your two plays separately. In both plays NFHS R7-S5-A7 allows for as few as one player and as many as five players from Team A to be on the out-of-bounds side of the end line at the same time during the throw-in. R7-S5-A7 also allows the players from Team A to pass the ball among themselves, but Team A is still subject R7-S6-A1. Behind the end line means just that. The end line ends where intersects with the sideline and the sideline ends where it intersects with the end line. For the sake of this argument lets confine Team A to only two players on the out-of-bounds side of the end line during the throw-in.

Play #1: A1 passes the ball to A2: a) The ball goes past A2, who never touches the ball, and the ball continues along the out-of-bounds side of the end line and goes past the intersection point of the sideline and the end line. Or b) A2 fumbles the pass, and the ball continues out-of-bounds and goes past the plane of the sideline. In both (a) and (b) Team A did not meet the requirements of R7-S6-A1 that require the ball to be passed directly onto the court such that it shall touch another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched. Therefore Team A has committed a throw-in violation.

Play #2: A1 passes the ball to A2: a) The ball goes past A2, who never touches the ball, and the ball strikes the wall behind the end line. Or b) A2 fumbles the pass, and the ball strikes the ball behind the end line. In both (a) and (b) Team A did not meet the requirements of R7-S6-A1 that require the ball to be passed directly onto the court such that it shall touch another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched. Therefore Team A has committed a throw-in violation.

MTD,
I am not challenging your logic, I am disputing your application of 7-6-1 to this situation. To quote from that rule, "The throw-in pass shall touch another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched. The throw-in pass shall not touch a teammate while it is on the out-of-bounds side of the throw-in boundary plane."
Now add "Any player of the team may make a direct throw-in or he/she may pass the ball along the end line to a teammate(s) outside the boundary line." from 7-5-7.
My stance is that in both plays you discuss above, Team A is not making a throw-in pass. They are making a pass amongst teammates on the out-of-bounds side of the throw-in boundary. Since this pass was never intended to go into the court, it doesn't qualify as a throw-in pass, and thus is not subject to the provisions of such a pass.
As conclusive proof that this is not a throw-in pass: (1) realize that when teammates pass the ball OOB along the endline the throw-in count does not stop. However, "the throw-in count ends when the ball is released by the thrower so the passed ball goes directly into the court." 4-41-4 and (2) the second sentence that I quoted above from 7-6-1 says that a teammate may not touch a throw-in pass while it is on the OOB side of the throw-in plane, but this is just what is done and is permitted with this pass. Both of these show that this pass cannot qualify as a throw-in pass.
So to sum up, this pass is not a throw-in pass and thus it does not have to go directly into the court and Team A cannot be penalized if it doesn't. Team A has until the full five seconds expires to execute a throw-in pass.

[JRutledge]

At the end of the day, this is not something that I have ever seen and I am sure many have never seen this or never will. It seems to be a debate over what has taken place and that will never get resolved. So just make a ruling, be as consistent as you can and give an explaination you see fit. If we cannot resolve it here, you think it is going to be resolved if we take appropriate action on the court?

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I do not have my rules books in front of me but let me forge ahead anyway.

By definition, all throw-ins are designated spot throw-ins and the team making the throw-in is allowed to only have the thrower on the out-of-bounds side of the boundary line where the throw-in is being made; no other players from the team making the throw-in are allowed to be out-of-bounds along the boudary line where the throw-in is being made. The designated spot is three feet wide and is as deep as a wall behind the player. (That means an official should not let a player run backwards thru and open door along the wall while making the throw-in, that is not the intent of the rule.)

BUT, there is one exception to this definition. When the throw-in is the result of a team making a field goal or free throw or for being awarded points, such as for basket interference or goaltending. The exception allows the thrower to move along the end line and for the entire team to be on the out-of-bounds side of the end line during the throw-in. I am going to hate myself for saying this but think of the thrower's teammates who are out-of-bounds with along the end line as a clone of the thrower. Or when A1 and A2 are both on the out-of-bounds side of the endline, they are to be treated as one player and the end line from sideline to sideline is to be treated as the designated spot. If one looks at the type of throw-in that has been discussed in this thread as I have described it in the previous sentence, it is easy to apply the rules to the throw-in.

[Jurassic Referee]

Mark,you're confusing the hell out of everybody:
1)All throw-ins aren't designated spot throw-ins.Only the one where the official actually establishes the spot by putting the ball at the player's disposal is.
2)the designated spot is specifically defined as being 3 feet wide with no depth limitations-NOT sideline to sideline.

All of that is in the rules definition of a throw-in- R4-41-6.You can't change the specific wording of the definition just to meet your premise of how the play should be called.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 5th, 2003 at 12:08 PM]

[ChuckElias]

He's not confusing me at all, JR. I stopped reading this thread after mick's first post: "nose to toes, dugout to dugout". Crystal clear to me.

Chuck

[ChuckElias]

Hey, by the way, your new pitcher -- Contreras -- didn't look so hot yesterday. Sox knocked him around pretty good. Boston's pen looks horrible -- again! -- but what's the scuttlebutt about Contreras?

Chuck

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Hey, by the way, your new pitcher -- Contreras -- didn't look so hot yesterday. Sox knocked him around pretty good. Boston's pen looks horrible -- again! -- but what's the scuttlebutt about Contreras?

The only scuttlebutt that I heard of was in the NY Post this AM.Joe Torre said he's thinking too much and trying to be perfect.There was some speculation about starting him off in Triple A,too.Just the usual spring training b.s.,is all.Someone looking to sell papers.Hell,it's too early to even seriously start making fun of the BoSox!

[rockyroad]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[B]Ladies and Gentlemen: PLEASE!! READ THE RULES BOOK!!


R7-S5-A7: After a goal or awarded goal as in R7-S4-A3, the team not credited with the score shall make the throw-in from the end of the court where the goal was made and from ANY POINT OUTSIDE THE ENDLINE. Â….. Any player of the team may make a direct throw-in or he/she may pass the ball along the end line to a teammate(s) outside the boundary line.

Hmmm...any point outside the endline...don't see nothing about intersections with sidelines or anything else...hmmm...seems pretty simple to me...

And just so Chuck doesn't feel too bad, I work with a guy who - believe it or not - is a KANSAS CITY FAN!!! He says he's hoping for 70 wins this season...and I thought being a BoSox fan was tough!!

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Having read this whole post I will ask a variation and also provide my insight.

??? What would we do if we are administering a spot throwin and the thrower looses (fumbles the ball) and it does not roll on to the court?? Is it a violation or does the 5 count continue allowing that player to recover the ball and returns to the throwin spot to complete the throwin.

On the above variation, once the ball is at the disposal of the thrower I would allow them to make the throwin anywhere between the intersection of the sidelines. If they would fumble the ball putside of the sidelines extended, I would allow them to return inside but call a violation if the throw came from outside the sideline extended. My thinking is this, this could create an advantage for the thrower as the defense is very unlikely to follow the thrower to defend the throwin. I would apply this only to a fumble by a single throwin player, not a pass to another OOB. If the pass is fumbled missed by the other OOB teammate, I would allow only that teammate to recover the ball beyond the sideline and return it themself to between the sidelines extended otherwise we would have a violation as an advantage could be gained. I don't have rule books to back them with (am working on the spring season now) but this is my two sense....

[Adam]

On the spot throw in, as long as the player doesn't leave the three foot spot, I'm okay with it. If they leave the spot to retrieve the ball? Violation. Assuming, of course, that they gained full control when I handed it to them. If they hand off is fumbled? Blow the whistle and start over.
On the end-line throw in, no spot, I've only got a 5 second count. Rules don't give me a clear definition of any other violation, so I have to let it pass. YMMV, obviously.
I don't care if the player throws it in from the concession stand outside the gym, as long is it goes directly to the court (no OOB bounce) and touches a player in bounds and is released within 5 seconds, I'm letting it pass. I don't even care if it hits the concession stand. Chances are, if it goes that far, I'll have "5" before they even get to it.
Five seconds isn't that long.
Adam