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Wed Jul 26, 2000, 03:32pm
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Here is another valuable lesson from my attendance at "Between the Lines" camp this summer. First, the game situation: Games are 20-minute halves, running clock, high school varsity boys. It is late in the first half, and blue has just scored 4 unanswered points to pull to within 6. 8 players and my partner (2-man) are trotting down the court, while I watch the ensuing inbound. (I'm including information identified by tape analysis in the scenario. Be sure to catch what we knew and what we did not know at the time of the play.
 )A1 is still a full step from the endline when he "inbounds" the ball to A2, who takes off down court. A1 continues toward OOB, but I blow my whistle to call the illegal inbound play. My partner does NOT hear my whistle.  The coach of white sees the illegal inbound (or hears my whistle) and requests a timeout to chew some butt. My partner, who has no clue of the violation at my end, cracks his whistle and grants the timeout. (Remember this is all bang-bang within a second or two.) After I signal the inbound violation, I turn to look up court and see players running to their benches, and my partner starting to report the timeout. I did NOT hear his whistle. Partner and I meet in the middle of the court and discover we have no clue, nor any independent information that would lead us to know which occured first, the violation or the timeout. He (R) decides arbitrarily that the timeout was first, so it will be white's inbound under blue's basket after the timeout. After the timeout I announce the simultaneous calls and that we have ruled that the timeout was first, and it will be white's ball. Now the coach of blue just spent the timeout planning their inbound play where they intend to draw to within 4 points of white. He is livid!  He is yelling "You are wrong!" and comes clear to the paint in his emotion. At that point, I reward him with a technical foul for refusing to get off the court. We now learn that we got the call wrong (from tournament director - unbiased) but it no longer matters, as white will shoot 2 for the T and take the ball at midcourt. What could have been a 4 point lead is now 10 points.The obvious lesson is court awareness and never missing your partner's whistle -- no need to spend time discussing that. The real issue is how do you handle the situation after you've gotten yourself into the mess. You have no independent information to resolve the ambiguity -- what do you do? The college official working as our evaluator knew the proceedure for dealing with this, but I don't want to spoil the fun of everyone taking their shot out how they would escape alive. I'll share his resolution next week....  [This message has been edited by Richard Ogg (edited July 26, 2000).] 
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Wed Jul 26, 2000, 04:32pm
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To minimize the damage, I recommend that the officials decide what the call is, call both coaches out and notify them of the decision, and then commence the timeout officially. That obviously doesn't help you to get the call right, but saves me a little bit of anger because I know going into the timeout what will occur coming out instead of having the switcheroo.
In this specific case, it sounds like it is not exactly a bang-bang call. The ball has progressed up court> Perhaps you can deduce from where the ball was when he blew his whistle that it had already been inbounded? I am stumped as to what other source of information you would have, especially unbiased information. The timer and scorer may be, but they also may be the two people that the home team has working the table.
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Wed Jul 26, 2000, 10:33pm
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Come on guys.
You are with the ball and you blow your whistle. The coach who is getting the ball reacts and calls a timeout which the other official recognizes. Easy. The violation is enforced and the coach gets to set up his play under his basket. It must have been a tough and gruelling camp to not hear your partners whistle! Sorry no compassion here as this never happened to me in 25 years of officiating.
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Wed Jul 26, 2000, 11:47pm
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quote: I know this was probably harped on at the camp but good mechanics on your violation call would probably prevent this use your hand closet to the end line to stop the clock and and then point in the direction oob and dont look away from the court to point!! Just because you blow your whistle doesnt mean that all play and other things stop. By doing this you may not have heard your partners whistle but you would have seen his TO signals and would know which happened first.
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Thu Jul 27, 2000, 12:43am
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Some clarifying points....
quote: The ball handler progressed maybe two steps up the court before stopping due to the whistle. Both whistles are descernable on the vedio tape, and are 2-3 seconds apart. quote: It was not the coach getting the ball (who is standing right in front of me) who requested the timeout but the one who lost the ball and therefore wanted to chew butt. Naturally he is at the other end of the gym (near my partner). I admit there is no excuse for not hearing your partner's whistle but it happened. Once that happened, the term "easy" didn't seem to apply.  quote: This is always good to remember. Actually, I made the call with my shoulders square and facing directly toward the coach who would get the ball (blue). I didn't look away from the court, but was looking across the court, not down it. (I have no idea which way my partner was facing....) quote: This is one of the key points of resolving the problem. Never mind how many seconds the teams have already had - inform both coaches of the ruling, then give them the full allotted time for the timeout. There is more to consider.... 
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Thu Jul 27, 2000, 07:38am
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Sorry to be mean but!
As you are the active official at the time and have full view of the violation which without doubt has accured first use your common sense and award the ball to the team b to say that neither or u heard each others whistle is a cop out to me . Some times it's best to do what is right even if there is egg on your face.......because by all accounts you now have more than egg. luke quote:
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Thu Jul 27, 2000, 06:18pm
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This is a tough crowd. I haven't met Richard or seen him on the court, but his posts are very thoughtful and show a good knowledge of the rules, game management, etc. 3 years HS ref is not the highest level of experience I have seen on this board, but its not the low end of this either. I am willing to bet that he carries himself well on the court, or will give him the benefit of the doubt absent any evidence to the contrary. I am not a ref, but . . . IMHO, lets cut him a little slack on the judgments here and see where he takes this one. Grant him the circumstances that occurred as stated - 2 refs, 2 whistles, 2 calls, neither ref knows for sure which came first. Now what do you do to make the right call?
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Fri Jul 28, 2000, 11:25pm
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I cannot wait for the answer that the evaluator gave for this situation. I do not think anyone disagrees that you should have made eye contact and you should pay more attention to listening for your partner's whistles. All that is mute right now. What do you do when you there?
It seems as though the players kind of told you what happened. The A player had inbounded the ball before your partner's whistle. In other words you blew your whistle before your partner. You know not just by the sound, but because you put your hand up before your partner. By rule, the ball is dead due to violation. Team A is then given the timeout and then out of the timeout: give the ball to Team B. Talking to the coaches' is good game management, but it also gives them an opportunity to yell at you. I stick by what I said earlier. I think the players told you what had happened. This is a good case study!!!
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Sat Jul 29, 2000, 03:26am
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quote: Probably not so much grueling as noisy, with three or four games in the same room. After all three games equals the potential for six simultaneous whistles!! Wow, no compassion at all?? I just dashed opstairs to look in my association roster. Didn't find a Silliman listed. Whew!! I need all the compassion I can get from my partner... and come to think about it, so do .... well, never mind.....
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Mon Jul 31, 2000, 12:35am
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Right or wrong this is how i have always handle the inbounder not making it oob for the throwin. I blow my whistle and make him go back and try the throwin again. I've never had problems. Knock on wood
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Wed Aug 02, 2000, 03:38pm
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quote: I thought, in hind-sight, it was an interesting case study -- that's why I posted it. Now for the "answer".... Remember that this comes from a D2 referee working as an evaluator for our high-school level camp. This does not make whatever he says correct, but at my level it is worth listening to!
I enjoyed everyone's comments, and appreciated the vote of confidence from some.
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Wed Aug 02, 2000, 06:24pm
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I assume that by your evaluator's first comment, about simultaneous violation/time out, that the default in this situation is that the whistles were simultaneous? This seems similar to the situation where you do not agree who touched the ball last going OOB it is a held ball and is inherently logical. There must be a case on simultaneous whistles somewhere and their precedence?
For arguments sake, assume my understanding of what you were told is correct, that in the absence of knowledge the whistles are considered simultaneous and the violation as precedence over the timeout. Then we can reverse the facts (which neither official knew at the moment of truth on the court), have the time out come first and the violation second, neither referee knew which came first, rule it a simultaneous whistle and you charge the violation. That makes you wrong by what transpired in real time on the court, but correct by rule in how you deal with lack of adequate knowledge about what transpired. What I am saying, is this advice from your evaluator gets the call right only in the circumstance that you outlined, but puts you in the right by rule all of the time. You already have a problem, knowing the appropriate way to resolve your uncertainty it is the best you can hope for, even if it doesn't guarantee that the call you make will represent what actually occurred.
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Mon Aug 14, 2000, 01:43pm
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Why did partner grant a timeout request without knowing if the ball is in control or at the disposal of a player on the requesting coach's team? If he had checked, it would have been an easy problem to resolve.
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Wed Aug 16, 2000, 11:52am
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Reply to R.Ogg..Simul/violation&timeout
Once white has player control, timeout can be granted. If white coach called for time when his player picked up ball,,,OK. If called later,,,violation. Being a summer league,running clock early in the game, and if there wasn't any defensive pressure on the white team, I think I would have ignored it.
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Wed Aug 23, 2000, 03:49pm
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Learn and go on. Keep working hard and stay focused. Enough said.
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