Help with a call that keeps bothering me?

[Benzbmr]

I play Division III basketball in Massachusetts and am pretty aggressive when going after shots around the basket. I've had 6 or 7 occassions this year where I had a fastbreak 2 on 1 against me. The player at the top of the key slows down with a player on his right side. I stop at about the dotted line waiting for the pass to the player at his right/my left. When the pass is made a drop to the basket and leap for the glass. On all these occassions I've caught the ball against the glass and been called for 3 fouls and had 4 called clean. My problem is that I've had 2 of the 4 clean calls where the guy fell to the ground after my block, apparently from my contact with him. Then I've had 2 called where I went up, blocked the shot, came down with the ball in my hands and made minimal contact with the shooter but yet it was called a foul. Is there any specific thing that you look for when a block is attempted during a fast break? Is it about timing? I'm just trying to figure out how I can keep from picking up these fouls while still contesting the shot. Also, how can I approach the official after one of these foul calls without him taking it the wrong way? Any help is much appreciated.

[BktBallRef]

Each play has to be judged on it's own merit. We can't tell you what to do differently. And, though it doesn't help you, different officials are going to call the play based on what they see.

As far as what to say to the official, there's nothing to say, no reason to say anything. He's not going to change the call and he's not going to call the next one any differently because you said something.

[Dan_ref]

Hey Chuck, this guy doesn't like some of your calls.

[ChuckElias]

(That's why I didn't reply!)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Hey Chuck, this guy doesn't like some of your calls.

Not true!!

He doesn't like ANY of Chuck's calls!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Benzbmr
Then I've had 2 called where I went up, blocked the shot, came down with the ball in my hands and made minimal contact with the shooter but yet it was called a foul. Is there any specific thing that you look for when a block is attempted during a fast break?

What I look for is contact, even "minimal contact". If the shooter is in the air, any contact at all is going to throw him off, and is thus a foul. At your level of play, refs let a lot more contact go away from the ball, and before the shot, but on the shot, it doesn't take much. I suggest trying for a different result. Instead of trying to steal the ball, try to deflect it, or try getting into the path of the dribbler to take him out of rhythm. Work hard for no contact at all. Get a friend to sit on the endline and video your games. It's surprising what you can see on tape.

[Benzbmr]

Rainmaker, does it matter if contact is before or after the shot attempt. Like if I get the ball then come down and land on the shot taker so that it didn't affect the shot?

Thank You

[devdog69]

Honestly? Sometimes. At your level officials, majority of them, will try and let you block shots if possible. That is, if you get ball then minimal contact they may pass, but if you come down on the guy that demands a whistle and guess what, you caused the contact=foul. What you are trying to do is play defense from a non-defensive position so what you are doing had better be very clean, what I mean by that is the officials may no-call the same amount of contact on a blocked shot if you were in front of the shooter rather than behind. JMHO.

[ChuckElias]

Ben, where do you play?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Benzbmr
Rainmaker, does it matter if contact is before or after the shot attempt. Like if I get the ball then come down and land on the shot taker so that it didn't affect the shot?

No, it doesn't. An airborne shooter is still in the acto shooting until he returns to the floor. So, if you contact him before he returns to the floor, it's a foul.

[Benzbmr]

Sorry Chuck, don't feel comfortable letting all the Refs know I'm complaining about them. No offense intended by that remark, just not comfortable with it.

Thank You

[Tim Roden]

We need to go back to the second reply. The call is based on what the official can see. Hopefully Chuck(or his partners in crime) will hussle and get in better position to see the play. If the official is in a bad position, you could kill the player and not get a call or you could miss him all together and he still thinks he saw something. But getting in good position will get the play right. Since this is Div III, there should be three man crews and either the center or the new lead should be able to see between the players well enough to make a call. Again, once the whistle is blown, you are not going to change the officials call.

[bkiledad]

Try to remember the principle of verticality... that is, the defensive player is entitled to the space directly above them. If you have your arms straight up, and jump straight up, you should not be called for a foul at the d-3 level. What I see many times is a player who is capable of blocking a shot by going straight up, but wants to swat at the ball. When this happens it is easier to call a foul on the defender because they did not stay in their "vertical frame." Also, as officials we live and die with Advantage-Disadvantage. If the referee feels that your contact gave you an advantage over the shooter (i.e. caused him to miss the shot) then it is going to be a foul. If the perception is that the contact did not cause the shot to be missed then it should not be called a foul.

This is not an exact science. Unfortunately, as hard as we try to be consistent you're going to get different calls from different officials. You may even get different calls from me from night to night.... although I would hope not. But like was already said, talking to the ref about his call is NOT going to earn you any favors later in the game. Best thing to do is nod your head and raise your hand when called for a foul, letting everyone know that the ref got it right -- even if you don't agree. THIS behavior is what we all love to see!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Tim Roden
The call is based on what the official can see. Hopefully Chuck(or his partners in crime) will hussle and get in better position to see the play. If the official is in a bad position, you could kill the player and not get a call or you could miss him all together and he still thinks he saw something.

Tim,I know that you probably didn't mean it the way that it's written above,but you just did Chuck a very bad dis-service.You're using the wrong guy completely to try and illustrate your point.People that have worked with Chuck have posted that he's extremely quick and nimble-of-foot.A lack of hustle and bad positioning definitely aren't illustrative of Chuck's oficiating ability.You don't get asked to do two-man semi-pro ball,like Chuck,if you can't run and get into position.

The point that you are trying to make might be OK,but your way of illustrating it was completely wrong,IMHO.

[theboys]

One mistake I see defenders make regularly is that they maintain their position, extend their arms straight up, then as the shooter shoots, they just can't help themselves, and move their arms toward the shooter, initiating contact. I don't think defenders even realize they do it. Lots of times coaches don't even see it. But, the game film sees it. And, so do the refs.