Dunking a dead ball

[canuckrefguy]

I think all we'll ever prove here, is that "unsporting conduct" will always be a judgement call. Sometimes the judgment is easily arrived at, sometimes it's not.

We've also proved that JRutledge and Bktbllref won't be going out for beers anytime soon.

[mick]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Stan, this doesn't really have anything to do with unsporting behavior. Persoanlly, I don't see how it's any different than a player grabbing the rim for no reason or dunking during pregame. It's the same rule. Should we ignore those infractions as well?

Yesterday I stayed to watch the men's game.
Two seconds after the whistle, another player took a jump shot.
I found it offensive, but it was one of those problems that was better off ignored.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mick
[/B]

Yesterday I stayed to watch the men's game.
Two seconds after the whistle, another player took a jump shot.
I found it offensive, but it was one of those problems that was better off ignored. [/B][/QUOTE]Many years ago(and I'll be damned if I remember exactly how many),there were rules prohibiting players from taking practice shots at any time except before the game and at half-time.Penalty was a T-with no warning.They even had casebook plays detailing that players couldn't shoot after a whistle,take a practice FT,warm-up on a side basket,etc. Another one that went the way of the Dodo bird(similar to me,cttoi).

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Had this play last night.
Packed, loud gym, first place on the line, final game of the regular season.
I'm L.
A1 driving toward the basket on a fast break.
B1 whacks A1 across the mid-section.
C whistles the foul just before A1 crosses the FT line.
A1 takes two more dribble, jumps, and slams it home.
I heard the whistle.

Call?

Question: Was A1 dribbling when he was fouled by B1? If A1 was dribbling then he was not fouled in the act of shooting.

BUT, if A1 was not dribbling when B1 fouled him, then the official has to decide if A1 was in the act of shooting.

The key to this play is whether A1 was in the act of shooting or was dribbling when he was fouled by B1.

That question is not answered in the original posting.

For the sake of discussion, lets assume that A1 was dribbling toward the basket and prior to being fouled by B1, A1 stopped his dribble by grabbing the ball with both hands and both of his feet were off the floor. What can A1 do with his feet from the point of his stopping his dribble? The rules (NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, and FIBA) allow a player who stops his dribble or catches a pass with both of his feet off the floor to do the following:

a) Land simultaneously on both feet. Either foot can be A1's become his pivot foot.

b) Land on one foot, jump off it, and then land simultaneously on both feet. A1 cannot not have a pivot foot.

c) Land on one foot (his pivot foot), jump off it, land on his other foot (without touching the floor with his pivot foot), jump off it. A1 must now release the ball for a pass or a shoot before returning to the floor.

The rules references for the above is:

NFHS: R4-S43-A1, A2, A3, A4, and A5

NCAA: R4-S65-A1, A2, A3, A4, and A5

FIBA: R7-A38

If my assumption is correct about when A1 stopped his dribble, then A1 by rule is allowed to do what is described in (c) above. This means that A1 started the act of shooting when he stopped his dribble. And the continous motion rule allows him to finish his act of shooting.

See: NFHS R4-S12-A2, NCAA R4-S12-A1, or FIBA R6-A28.1.6.1 and A28.1.6.2.

[BktBallRef]

Mark, what are you going on about?

A1 driving toward the basket on a fast break.
B1 whacks A1 across the mid-section.
C whistles the foul just before A1 crosses the FT line.
A1 takes two more dribble, jumps, and slams it home.

The foul was called, probably closer to the top of the circle and A1 continues to dribble. Whether the player was in the act of shooting is not in question. He continued to dribble after the foul. How could you possibly think he was in the act of shooting?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Question: Was A1 dribbling when he was fouled by B1? If A1 was dribbling then he was not fouled in the act of shooting.


That question is not answered in the original posting.

UhMark,I hate to do it to ya,but please read Tony's actual statement above. "A1 TAKES TWO MORE DRIBBLES" after the foul is called! It kinds blows your whole hypothesis t'hell,to be quite honest.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Mark, what are you going on about?

A1 driving toward the basket on a fast break.
B1 whacks A1 across the mid-section.
C whistles the foul just before A1 crosses the FT line.
A1 takes two more dribble, jumps, and slams it home.

The foul was called, probably closer to the top of the circle and A1 continues to dribble. Whether the player was in the act of shooting is not in question. He continued to dribble after the foul. How could you possibly think he was in the act of shooting?

Thank you for answering my orginal question: Was A1 dribbling when he was fouled by B1? You just said he was.

In my post I was trying to expand the discussion to determine what would happen if A1 had ended his dribble before he was fouled by B1. Saying that A1 was driving toward his basket does not say whether A1 was dribbling the ball at the time he is driving toward his basket.

[mick]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Thank you for answering my orginal question: Was A1 dribbling when he was fouled by B1? You just said he was.

No, all I did was copy and paste the orginal post. But it was pretty clear there.

Saying that A1 was driving toward his basket does not say whether A1 was dribbling the ball at the time he is driving toward his basket.

How does a player at the FT line drive to the basket without dribbling?

It doesn't matter. I stated that the foul was called and the player dribbled two more times. Now, what's your verdict, T or not?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

DOH!!! I guess I have the prime requirments to be a sports official: blind in one eye and cannot see out of the other.

I am watching the Music Man on ABC as I have been reading the posts and I kept thinking STEPS instead of DRIBBLES.

I humbly apologize.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
DOH!!! I guess I have the prime requirments to be a sports official: blind in one eye and cannot see out of the other.

I am watching the Music Man on ABC as I have been reading the posts and I kept thinking STEPS instead of DRIBBLES.

I humbly apologize.

Fine!! Read it again and give us your call!!

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Many years ago(and I'll be damned if I remember exactly how many),there were rules prohibiting players from taking practice shots at any time except before the game and at half-time.

JR, see 2-7-4, although there is no penalty mentioned.

[stan-MI]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Stan, this doesn't really have anything to do with unsporting behavior. Persoanlly, I don't see how it's any different than a player grabbing the rim for no reason or dunking during pregame. It's the same rule. Should we ignore those infractions as well?

It doesn't take more than a split second for a player on a fast break to get from the FT line to a dunk. Unless there was something unsporting about it, I'd probably find "reasonable doubt" that the player didn't hear the whistle or couldn't stop in time. Take a look at NCAA 10-3-13, AR6 and AR7. It's a supportable no call, and probably more readily accepted than a strict rulebook call.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

JR, see 2-7-4, although there is no penalty mentioned.

I knew that was there,Chuck. Honestly! They used to actually list the different acts and penalties for them under Rule 10,but they took 'em out many moons ago.To be quite honest,when these came up in the distant past,there was a lot of warning and very little "T'ing going on.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I knew that was there,Chuck. Honestly!

I should've known that you knew that. After only a brief search, I found the thread where you and TH educated me on it. http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...?threadid=5300

Chuck