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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 12, 2003, 11:28am
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I have had the "privelege" of watching the Garfield coach (the one who makes the racism claims)in a number of State tournaments...here is an actual conversation (as near as I can remember it) from my first time watching his team lose in a tourny game...I was sitting with several other officials...

"Well, Garfield loses another quarterfinal game. I give him 10 minutes,' says official #1.

"10? I give him 5," says #2.

"What are you taliking about?" I ask.

"In less than 10 minutes, we will walk over by the tournament office, and Floyd will be in there complaining about racist refs, " responds #1.

"Oh come on, " I said.

"Let's go," says #2...so we went over there, and sure enough, there he was doing exactly what they said...understand that his team had just lost by 13 points to the eventual State champions...I was back there the next two years in a row, and the exact same thing happened both times...when this guy loses, the refs are racist...those who are familiar with him are not surprised by his comments...he is a first class whiner...
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 12, 2003, 01:15pm
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Red face

I think that this article was not a slap at officials at all. It brings up some valid points about our chosen hobby. Which it is to most of us. It isn't our profession. I also agree with Rich that officials who didn't play the game can be good officials. As a former hockey player who thought basketball was for "sissies" my calls are based on the rules only. Not how I would have wanted it called when I was a player or how I used to get screwed on the same calls when I was playing. That said, I have had to work hard on trying to understand what the teams are trying to do. I never thought that was important when I started. But having a "feel for the game" is important. You don't have to have played the game, but you definitely learn by experience. I applaud the Washington State Association for mandatory classroom and on court experience before allowing new officials to blow a whistle. There are no such requirements in Minnesota. I also agree that most officials there are probably better trained than new coaches.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 12, 2003, 03:22pm
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Red face Seems like you are more offended by the accusation then dealing with the perception.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
Rut, that is ridiculous. Should we not send black officials to rural towns that have little minority population? How about women working boys' games -- should that not happen either? Why send 50-year-olds to work these games -- I mean, aren't they way older than the players?

WE are not racists. The coach, who is looking for bias at every turn, is the racist. He is the one (along with the Sharptons and the Jacksons) who is driving a stake between the races for his own personal gain. Woe is me and my team. Waaaaah.

You like others do not even know what being racist is. It has nothing to do with just not liking someone of another race. It is a belief in superiority as a Race of People. Do not ever remember Sharpton or Jackson talking about how whites were racially inferior to Black people and saying whites did not deserve access to things that are Black. Even thought the one drop rule exsists still in this country and if a white person and a Black person have a child, 9 times out of 10 that child takes on more of the Racially Black features or skin tone than that of their white parent.

But having said that, if you want to take away the appearance of racial bias, schedule more officials of color on those games that have racial differences between the teams. If you want to erase all issues of racial impropriety or any impropriety, you should schedule officials that can be seperated from that issue. No different to me than not assigning 3 officials directly from one of the teams hometown. We can talk about that as an issue of bias and conflicts of interest, but we bring race into, everyone wants to run from this issue.

I live in a very racially segregated area. There are even suburbs where the teams are all-Black and the other team is all-white. I have been put on several of these games over the years and it always takes away the ammo from that argument. When you have 3 Black officials doing on an all-white, all-black game, you take away the preception that anything was decided on race. At least for the Black teams. And I would suspect that is not unusual anyway. I know around me, for some reason there were white and Black coaches that coach all-Black teams were complaining about the officials they were getting as it related to race. They wanted to see more Black officials on their games. And in many cases this was accomplished by hiring more African-American officials and this took away that argument of racial bias. It almost took that arugment completely away.

If you feel you are being wronged in this article, make some changes to give yourself and your association a chance to be viewed in a better light.

I can speak as an African-American official, that white coaches do not treat me the same as Black coaches. Not to suggest what you are thinking, but they do not behave the same towards me in any way. I wonder why that is? I am not alone in this assessment in my area. Many African-American officials feel the same way I do about this, because we have all had similar experiences. And when it is a racially diverse game, the dynamic chances greatly.

If you want to just pass it off as an incorrect statement, then you will be dealing with this over and over again. This coach obviously feels this way for some reason, it might have some merit, it might not. But you will never know if you act like an ostrich and put your head in the sand. Address the main concern, put more Blacks on his games. Maybe then he will not complain.

Peace
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 12, 2003, 03:27pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by theboys
In all the years I have played, coached, and simply watched basketball, I have never seen a referee call a game a particular way due to race issues, regardless the color of the official or teams involved.
I have seen it and believe me it hurts. I'm not going to go into details about the particular game where I saw it, but I can tell you that I was not the only one who thought racism was an issue. It has been well documented. The pain still rumbles around in my stomach. I have the most tremendous admiration for people who really do suffer under racist situations and manage to rise anyway. I don't think I have the strentgh of character to rise above it. But the coach who lost that game, gave the most amazing locker room talk afterwards. It was to the effect that the girls had to keep their chins up, and let the world know that they were better people than those refs. They must play tomorrow as though they had won this one, and then everyone would see the rights and wrongs of the situation. Most of all, they must not see themselves as less, simply because a couple of guys who didn't know them thought they were less.

Racism is alive and well in all parts of the U.S. and continues to affect people. Does that mean the Seattle coach was right that his team is being hurt by it? Not necessarily. But even if he is right, the only response that works is to play so well, so clean, so legalistically correctly, that the refs absolutely cannot call anything. Whining about it just simply doesn't help.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 12, 2003, 05:59pm
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Have to agree with Rutledge

Not that it happens too frequently...

This seems a relatively simple solution to a problem that most likely does not exist. It does however change the perception of those making accusations.

I don't advocate using skin tint as a determining factor in assignments etc., but in an area like Seattle or other big cities it should not be too difficult to have a "mixed" crew officiate games where there exists a possible problem. This doesn't have to happen all the time, but when possible why not defuse the situation before it happens.

I didn't get the same message from Rut's suggestion that others did. Rut appeared to say the same things others were: Officials are unbiased, problem is most likely in coaches perception, it shouldn't make a difference who calls a game... Rut only mentions an easy solution.

Don't assignors do this anyway? For instance, if two teams are going to run fast breaks the entire game, doesn't the assignor make sure that he's got guys that can handle the running there? A big girls game doesn't call for a misogynist like Rut. No big deal anywhere.

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 12, 2003, 06:10pm
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Lightbulb If you do not know anything about me, do not run your mouth.

Quote:
Originally posted by physicsref


A big girls game doesn't call for a misogynist like Rut. No big deal anywhere.

A misogynist? I am one of the biggest egalitarians on this board or anywhere. I believe in equality for all, not just for a few. I also have no problem with Women advancing in Women's baskeball, because the officials should reflect the players and coaches on the floor. There are many male officials that look down on girl's basketball and should not be there regardless of gender. That is why I have always advocated Women's advancement at the higher ranks and do not take the game the position that many take of "qualifications" as an issue.

To call me a misogynist when my education background and my every day practices do not suggest such. Choosing a side to officiate has nothing to do with being against women, it has to do with. That is why it is funny that a Black Conference gave a Women a chance to do the Men's NCAA Tournament. I supported that action all the way.

Peace
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 12, 2003, 07:04pm
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Re: If you do not know anything about me, do not run your mouth.

Easy Rut!

Take a second and relax. Breathe deeply.

No offense was intended, but unfortunately taken.

Yes "misogynist" was a bit of hyperbole. I figured you and others would understand that is referred to your antipathy toward officiating women's games.

If you would read the rest of the note, you would see that it supports what you suggested.

On another note, your aversion to the label "misogynist" strikes me as similar to most folks reticence to accept the label "racist".

Anyway, I could make many comments on the similarities, but don't feel this is the appropriate avenue to pursue them. I will sum up my position of the previous post, though (omitting references to misogyny):

Sometimes there is a perceived problem. If there is a simple solution, do it. Don't make mountains out of molehills.

Relax.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 12, 2003, 08:05pm
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Re: Re: If you do not know anything about me, do not run your mouth.

Easy Rut!

Take a second and relax. Breathe deeply.

No offense was intended, but unfortunately taken.


Who said anything about being uptight. I just said you did not know what you were talking about. Take it or leave it. If you preceive it as anything else, that is not my issue.

Yes "misogynist" was a bit of hyperbole. I figured you and others would understand that is referred to your antipathy toward officiating women's games.

Saying that someone perfers a particular level and calling it misogynistic, is a bit much. Basically when I did not grow up in an age of the WNBA and even Women's Basketball being on TV, I did not imagine myself doing or excelling at that level. I also live in an area where it required for officials to choose one over the other. I work for several assignors or AD that do not even ask me to do girl's basketball. You want to know the truth, it is the Men that are involved that do not make it fun. Officials that are older than dirt, coaches that think girls are fragile beings and the fathers that cannot believe that their daughter can get knocked down without a foul being called. But I guess that means I hate men now?

If you would read the rest of the note, you would see that it supports what you suggested.

You see I was critical of what I needed to be. I was not taking issue with the other parts of your posts that I commented on.

On another note, your aversion to the label "misogynist" strikes me as similar to most folks reticence to accept the label "racist".

Well the are not the same thing. I do not know if you would accuse women as "Men haters" because they said they never wanted to do Boy's basketball? It never becomes an issue. I wonder why?

Anyway, I could make many comments on the similarities, but don't feel this is the appropriate avenue to pursue them. I will sum up my position of the previous post, though (omitting references to misogyny):

How nice of you.

Sometimes there is a perceived problem. If there is a simple solution, do it. Don't make mountains out of molehills.

Relax.


I took your comments and called you on it. This is not something I am going to lose sleep over. Do not flatter yourself.

Peace
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 12, 2003, 10:21pm
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As a new member to the board, I questioned whether or not to post on this topic as it is a very sensitive subject. In most cases I agree with JRut. I don't believe there is anything wrong with considering crew mix. It happens all the time whether we like it or not. I know for a fact that race of an official is taken into consideration. In fact in one predominately Black NCAA conference they are going the other way. Hiring more Whites cuz most of the staff at this point is Black. I think if you have a predominately Black school against a predominately White school it is probably beneficial (notice I did't say necessary) to have a mix. Not all Black, not all White. It would elinate for the most part this conception, be real or imagined

As rainmaker said. Racisim is everywhere and only the "mentally bigger" people will overcome it. I also consider myself an egalitarian and have no time for racist views. In fact part of my job is to address them if they surface in the workplace.

JRut-I do have a question though (and please do not take this out of context. My formal education is in the field of Psychology and I noticed one thing in your earlier post. When your referenced Black coaches/teams/officials you always capitalized the word Black. However, when you refereced White coaches/team/officials the word White was lower case. Is this a bit Freudian? Is there a message there . Again, don't take this seriously. I am just poking!!!

Yours in Basketball
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 12, 2003, 10:40pm
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Lightbulb I have a Sociological background.

Quote:
Originally posted by BBall_Junkie


JRut-I do have a question though (and please do not take this out of context. My formal education is in the field of Psychology and I noticed one thing in your earlier post. When your referenced Black coaches/teams/officials you always capitalized the word Black. However, when you refereced White coaches/team/officials the word White was lower case. Is this a bit Freudian? Is there a message there . Again, don't take this seriously. I am just poking!!!

That is done on purpose. "Black" is used to describe a race or ethnicity of people in Sociological terms. "White" is not. So when I say a white coach, it does not classify the same as used for races as Jewish or Anglo-saxon would. That is the reason for the capitalization of Black as compared to white.

Peace
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 12, 2003, 11:04pm
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JRut,

Point well taken and I figured that's what you meant all along (You know us Psychs, always trying to find the hidden meaning!). I was just poking and trying to add a little humor and leavity to a thread that has taken a turn for the worse. Not many topics I like worse than racism. Not that I try to pretend it doesn't exist or affect people everyday, its just that I would rather spend my time and efforts talking about more positive issues.

Yours in Basketball
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 12, 2003, 11:08pm
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Lightbulb Should be discussed.

Quote:
Originally posted by BBall_Junkie
JRut,

Point well taken and I figured that's what you meant all along (You know us Psychs, always trying to find the hidden meaning!). I was just poking and trying to add a little humor and leavity to a thread that has taken a turn for the worse. Not many topics I like worse than racism. Not that I try to pretend it doesn't exist or affect people everyday, its just that I would rather spend my time and efforts talking about more positive issues.

Yours in Basketball

I am just the opposite, I love discussing it. If people are honest with themselves, we might all learn something. And if the interjection of race did that here, that is always a good thing. And if this is seen as any other bias that is out there, you might find a better solution to this and many other problems.

Peace
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