book error

devdog69 · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 03, 2003, 10:47am

I was watching a JV game Saturday and saw this happen, which got a discussion going with myself and another ref watching from the stands. I have looked and can't find a satisfactory answer in the book, rule references please.

Starter #15 is in the book as #14, no one notices until :15 to go in the first quarter at which time she scores a bucket. The quarter expires and the table notifies the officials. They assess a technical foul and start the second quarter with the shots. I really saw no problem with the way they handled this, but my friend seemed to think that she was somehow validated in the book since she has already played and it wasn't caught earlier. I can see the argument that it wasn't caught while she was in the game and to wait until she comes in again to penalize, but can't really find what I'm looking for. Thanks.

Hawks Coach · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 03, 2003, 11:03am

When noted, penalize. If the table had done teir job, it would have been noted when she first reported. But when you notice is not relevant. It is a technical upon discovery.

Jurassic Referee · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 03, 2003, 11:17am

NFHS rule 10-1-2(c) plus penalty covers it.Penalized when it occurs,not when it's discovered.

Gotta add,the difference between "occurs" and "discovers" in the rule language is semantics only.They're basically the same thing.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 3rd, 2003 at 10:22 AM]

devdog69 · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 03, 2003, 11:20am

So if you don't catch it when it first occurs is it too late, JR?

BktBallRef · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 03, 2003, 11:22am

No, if she comes back into the game at anytime thereafter, it is penalized then.

Jurassic Referee · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 03, 2003, 11:25am

Quote:

Originally posted by devdog69
So if you don't catch it when it first occurs is it too late, JR?

I edited my post,Dev.You always penalize it.The only one that you don't penalize is if they get away with sneaking in a different designated starter.

Jurassic Referee · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 03, 2003, 11:28am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
No, if she comes back into the game at anytime thereafter, it is penalized then.

In this case,Tony,the player hasn't been subbed out,so I think that you can penalize at the end of the quarter. Thoughts?

devdog69 · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 03, 2003, 11:35am

Yes, I agree since she has scored and that is evidence that she was indeed in the game, otherwise I would probably wait til she came back in.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 03, 2003, 12:03pm

How I see the play is as follows:

The player was a starter, and no doubt was going to play more in the game. Therefore, the technical foul was not for her playing with the incorrect number but for a player changing her number in the book.

APHP · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 03, 2003, 02:58pm

I assume that at the end of the quarter (15 seconds later) was the first opportunity that the scorer was able to report to the ref that a number problem existed and therefore a tec was in order. Be that as it may, the player was still a designated player until she has been sub'ed for. Even though the quarter had ended she was still one of the 5 designated players and thus requires a number change and a tec--for changing book to correct number. Unless/until she is sub'ed out of the game, she is subject to the tec. Obviously if she had been sub'ed out before the problem was noted, then no tec unless/until she re-entered. Just my thoughts!!

ronald · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 03, 2003, 03:32pm

I believe the "penalized occurs" refers to when the official scorer makes a change to the official book after the book has met the time frame in Rule 3, Section 2, article 1. At that time, he or she notifies an official and the official assesses a T to the team.

In my underdetstanding, the player does not have to be in the game. They could be sitting on the bench having never played a second in the game when the scorer notices that one of the players has a number that is not in the book. I imagine that this generally only happens with players who get into a game or report to enter a game.

Having said that, if one interprets "requiring the scorer to change a ... number" as only valid if the player enters the game, then you would wait until the player entered or reported. But I do not read it that way.

Nevadaref · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 04, 2003, 04:01am

There are casebook plays on this, but right now I am too lazy to look them up.
The interpretation that I was taught on a kid wearing a different number than is listed in the book is:
1. It is only a T when either the scorer is required to change the number in the book or the player changes jerseys to match the number listed in the book.
2. If the kid never plays, it is never a T.
3. If the kid plays, the table should notify you upon his entry into the game and the T should be given then. If the table doesn't do this, but notices later while he is still in the game, then immediate T.
4. However, if the kid plays, but doesn't foul, score, or do anything to make the table write down anything for him in the book, and then comes out of the game without anyone noticing, then it is not a T until he plays again. And only then if someone notices this time.

Therefore, in your play since the scorer had to record a basket for this player, that would require a change to the book and the T should be given as soon as the scorer brings this to the officials' attention, whether the kid is still in the game or not.

PS I hope that they did NOT use the AP arrow to start the second quarter.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Feb 4th, 2003 at 03:04 AM]