What's legal with a 2nd inbounder after a made basket?

[jayedgarwho]

What's the correct ruling here?

After a made basket, the nonscoring team (A) runs a double-inbounder play to break the press. A1 takes the ball out of the net and stands OOB behind the baseline. As the five-second count begins, A2 is in-bounds. A2 then dashes across the baseline out of bounds, and sets both feet OOB before A1's pass gets to him. A2 then inbounds the ball (running the baseline first if necessary).

Legal?

NCAA Rule 7, Section 5, Article 7A says "Any player of the throw-in team may make a direct throw-in or may pass the ball along the end line to a teammate behind the end line."

Are the last words of that rule normally interpreted as:
(a) "to a teammate who is behind the end line as he receives the ball" or (b) "to a teammate who is behind the end line when the play (that is, the 5-second count)begins"?

Any different result under NFHS rules?

[mick]

Originally posted by jayedgarwho
What's the correct ruling here?

After a made basket, the nonscoring team (A) runs a double-inbounder play to break the press. A1 takes the ball out of the net and stands OOB behind the baseline. As the five-second count begins, A2 is in-bounds. A2 then dashes across the baseline out of bounds, and sets both feet OOB before A1's pass gets to him. A2 then inbounds the ball (running the baseline first if necessary).

Legal?

NCAA Rule 7, Section 5, Article 7A says "Any player of the throw-in team may make a direct throw-in or may pass the ball along the end line to a teammate behind the end line."

Are the last words of that rule normally interpreted as:
(a) "to a teammate who is behind the end line as he receives the ball" or (b) "to a teammate who is behind the end line when the play (that is, the 5-second count)begins"?

Any different result under NFHS rules?

There is no timing requirement for teammate to go OOB or to be OOB.

[Barry C. Morris]

Speaking for Fed rules only, the play you described is perfectly legal. After a made basket, all five players could be out of bounds could be out of bounds as long as the ball is released on the throw-in within five seconds.

I suspect that this is true for college hoops as well.

[jayedgarwho]

quick and authoritative. Follow up question purely from curiosity: At what point is A2 OOB for purposes of the play? Both feet touching down OOB? One foot touching down OOB? A2's feet are irrelevant so long as the ball stays behind the baseline?

[Barry C. Morris]

A-2's feet are relevant and only one part of one foot needs to be out of bounds for a-2 to be out of bounds.

[firedoc]

Also remember that ANY part of the boundary line is out of bounds.

[williebfree]

Originally posted by firedoc
Also remember that ANY part of the boundary line is out of bounds.

IF A2 catches the ball as s/he is heading OOB a throw-in violation occurs if:
a.) the foot is located on (straddling in and out of bounds, or
b.) A2 has not, prior to the catch, established OOB status (catches ball while airborne jumping from the playing court).

Also note:
A2's foot (feet) must be completely OOB and remain there until A2 releases the ball onto the court, or passes to another legally OOB teammate. Contact with OOB line is legal, contact with the court prior to release is a violation. As indicated earlier, the ball must be released onto the court within the 5 seconds; regardless of all OOB ballhandling.

[Edited by williebfree on Jan 30th, 2003 at 03:57 PM]

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by williebfree

IF A2 catches the ball as s/he is heading OOB a throw-in violation occurs if:
a.) the foot is located on (straddling in and out of bounds, or
b.) A2 has not, prior to the catch, established OOB status (catches ball while airborne jumping from the playing court).

Also note:
A2's foot (feet) must be completely OOB and remain there until A2 releases the ball onto the court, or passes to another legally OOB teammate. Contact with OOB line is legal, contact with the court prior to release is a violation. As indicated earlier, the ball must be released onto the court within the 5 seconds; regardless of all OOB ballhandling.

[Edited by williebfree on Jan 30th, 2003 at 03:57 PM]

Willie: Great concise clarification. Maybe you should write for the FED

One more tangent. We have established that legally OOB teammate1 may pass to legally OOB teammate2 when there are no spot restrictions. The question is can this pass be a bounce pass?? (touching and remaining OOB) Does defender 1 have the right to intercept this pass (while remaining IB) regardless if it is a bounce pass or not???

Obviously a bounce pass touching IB then caught by OOB teammate is OOB.

[klancie]

I don't remember a rule against a bounce pass in this situation. No, the defender cannot intercept this pass (unless he can do so without breaking the out of bounds plane, but I doubt that's possible...)

[mick]

Originally posted by klancie
I don't remember a rule against a bounce pass in this situation. No, the defender cannot intercept this pass (unless he can do so without breaking the out of bounds plane, but I doubt that's possible...)

klancie,
Given your assumption, (...or is it a rule or case?) how can I as an official, or how can a defender, tell that the released pass was headed to a teammate out-of-bounds instead of another teammate inbounds?
Are you certain about this?
mick

[dhodges007]

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref

Willie: Great concise clarification. Maybe you should write for the FED

One more tangent. We have established that legally OOB teammate1 may pass to legally OOB teammate2 when there are no spot restrictions. The question is can this pass be a bounce pass?? (touching and remaining OOB) Does defender 1 have the right to intercept this pass (while remaining IB) regardless if it is a bounce pass or not???

Obviously a bounce pass touching IB then caught by OOB teammate is OOB.

I have to say no since it is a delay of game warning if the D breaks the OOB plane and a T if they touch the ball. I don't see how it would be much different here. Now if they intercept the pass I will say they broke the plane first and just give a DOG warning.

[mick]

Originally posted by dhodges007

I have to say no since it is a delay of game warning if the D breaks the OOB plane and a T if they touch the ball. I don't see how it would be much different here. Now if they intercept the pass I will say they broke the plane first and just give a DOG warning. [/B]

dhodges007,
What about 8-6-3: "...until the ball has been released."
mick

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by mick
What about 8-6-3: "...until the ball has been released."
mick

First, I think it's 7-6-3. And second, you're not playing fair, Mick. It's "until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass." Passing to teammate who is also OOB is not a throw-in pass.

Chuck

[mick]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

First, I think it's 7-6-3. And second, you're not playing fair, Mick. It's "until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass." Passing to teammate who is also OOB is not a throw-in pass.

Chuck

Chuck,
It is 7-6-3.
How do I know, ...how does the defender know the released ball is not an inbounds pass.
Should be easy for me to judge, but the defender may have been facing an entirely different direction. Can we really penalize the defender?
(...as if I've ever seen or ever will see this play)

mick

[hawkk]

Originally posted by mick


Chuck,
It is 7-6-3.
How do I know, ...how does the defender know the released ball is not an inbounds pass.
Should be easy for me to judge, but the defender may have been facing an entirely different direction. Can we really penalize the defender?
(...as if I've ever seen or ever will see this play)

mick

Mick-

I think this one is easy: yes, we penalize the defense because the rules say we penalize the defense. How does the defender know it's not going in, by paying attention to the direction the ball is going. And I think the reasoning that you can call the delay instead of the T because he had to break the plane first is horse----; the intent of therule is pretty clear that it is a delay warning for breaking the plane without touching the ball -- any other reading makes the T an impossible option that has no purpose in the rule book.

(I frankly think this is an underutilized tool for breaking a press -- were I coaching against a team with an intense press, I'd put in a play to use the pass and a screen against the man covering the ball on the press. Run that play a couple of times, and then have a similar play where the second man stays in bounds to get the pass when the defender is expecting him to go OOB.)