Why are we reluctant to call Ts?

[Mark Padgett]

The title of your post is "Why are we reluctant to call Ts?"

As Tonto would say, "what do you mean we , etc.?"

[Ref Daddy]

Nice thread developing - Thanks.

I feel a T is the ultimate beacuse:
As ref's we govern play in a sport where there is a high degree of subjectivity. We all know that. Fast paced game - tons going on. It's complex and that's why I enjoy it. Baseball puts me to sleep even when I'm behind the plate.

I feel the T is the most "emotional" call. It is the violation that gets the most charged reaction. It is the gateway to leaving the gym or the profession if they do not work against poor sportsmanship. The consequences of a T are great. They should be used proporionatly to their power IMO.

But, they are deserved and sometimes no other means to send a message, control and effect a balanced well palyed game.

My debate: If I call a GREAT game is there ever the need for a T? If the coach's see my skills and unbias, will they "behave" - clearly NO. A T for 6 players on the court vrs a T for the coach calling me a bonehead for kicking BADLY a call makes their use subjective.

I want to use T's carefully but not reluctantly. And like all calls its effected by so many factors not able to be described on an internet board.

Carry ON!

[stripes]

Originally posted by whistleone
The thing that sticks out to me about this situation is when you said that your partner pushed the coach back to his bench and the game ended uneventfully. I think most officials will agree that technical fouls should be called in order to make the game better. If this game ended uneventfully with no T issued, I don't think there was a need for one.

I don't think your partner loses credibility if he handles the situation how he feels appropriate and the game ends as it did. However, if you come in to save the day while your partner's trying to handle a situation, then I think you both lose a little credibility. Let the newbie earn his stripes. If the coach does something behind his back, then you've got the right to step in and handle business.

If I read this correctly, you believe that no T should have been issued for the coach being at half court yelling at an official because the game ended uneventfully? Is that correct?

IMO, this isn't necessarily about making the game better as much as it is about enforcing rules. IMO, we make the game better by letting the coach know he can't walk on us and his behavior is unacceptable. I believe the game ended like it did because there was 30 sec remaining and the coach was getting his @$$ kicked and he wanted to leave.

I agree that me enforcing this would have made my partner lose credibility, but how does the calling official lose credibility by enforcing an obvious breach of the rules? I let him earn his stripes, I think he got a lesson, the hard way, about how not to do it.

[JRutledge]

If you have been thru the fire, time and time again, an official knows when to give a T and when not to give a T in most situations. The problem is that all of us have differnet levels of expectations and different understanding of what might be acceptable. Unfortunately, Ts are like Obscenity Laws, "you know it when you see it." The problem with that is, everyone has their own level of understanding or expectation of when this is necessary. No different than a block/charge call. The rules might make it clear, but the way you see it is another story. We are all human beings and will view the same situations, differently. Just the way it is.

Peace

[whistleone]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stripes

If I read this correctly, you believe that no T should have been issued for the coach being at half court yelling at an official because the game ended uneventfully? Is that correct?

IMO, this isn't necessarily about making the game better as much as it is about enforcing rules. IMO, we make the game better by letting the coach know he can't walk on us and his behavior is unacceptable. I believe the game ended like it did because there was 30 sec remaining and the coach was getting his @$$ kicked and he wanted to leave.

I agree that me enforcing this would have made my partner lose credibility, but how does the calling official lose credibility by enforcing an obvious breach of the rules? I let him earn his stripes, I think he got a lesson, the hard way, about how not to do it.

The official handled it how they felt appropriate at the time. You said you believe the game ended like it did because there were 30 seconds on the clock and the coach was getting his @$$ kicked and wanted to leave. So why prolong the game with a technical, his reaction, shooting two more free throws and possibly making the score worse? Encourage the coach to sit down, be quiet, let the officials do their jobs and everyone can go on their merry way.

[moose69]

I don't like to call them ,but sometimes nothing else works. If being a jerk, whack him. Do the crime, do the time as we say in police school.
Realistically there should be nothing different from calling a T then from calling a block or hack, i mean they are just foul, right? If you think someone has earned a T, they give it to them. If the person who gets hit with the T dosen't learn their lesson after one technical, then they sure will after the 2nd technial and they are in the dressing room.

TR

[williebfree]

Middle school game tonight

Early in the first quarter, boisterous voice from the bench "Three seconds! Three seconds! Three seconds! You need to call that!" All while there is a group of 8th graders playing "volleyball" under the hoop (You know the routine. Multiple shots, none of which have a chance of scoring.)

I soon realize this could be an unpleasant coach, aka Bobby Knight, Jr. (BKJ)

Next time down, one of BKJ's players is beaten by a nice athletic move. The loudmouth coach starts ripping his player a new "one." I deliberately pause and stare at him, give him a "hairy eyeball", and shake my head. He appeared to get the subtle message and is relatively quiet for the rest of the half.

Second half, Amnesia must have set in... Well, actually the opponents went on a run and built a 5 pt lead into a 17 pt lead. BKJ became increasingly verbally abusive toward his player and started chipping about the officiating again.

With 3:18 left in the 3rd qtr, I called an "illegal use of hands foul" against BKJ's player. It was clearly on a continuous motion to shoot. I reported the info to the table and moved to trail for the ensuing FTs.

In the quiet as my partner prepares to administer the FTs I hear BKJ... "No way! He wasn't shooting! He can't be shooting! Hey Ref, get in the game! Where did you come up with that call?"

I raise my hand (Universal Stop sign) and clearly state "Coach, we're shooting two. I have heard enough."

BKJ: "I will let you know when I am done!"

(Tweet) (Signal the T) Report to the table: "I have a direct technical on the coach for unsportsmanlike conduct."

BKJ: (Standing about 8 feet away from me, with fists clinched and veins popping out of the side of his neck.)
"I said I will let you know when I am done!"

(Tweet) (Signal the T) Report to the table: "I have a second direct technical on the coach for unsportsmanlike conduct. Coach you are now done. Please leave the gym now."

Asst coach is embarassed by BKJ's conduct and parents from BOTH teams give a standing O as my partner oversees BKJ stomping out of the gym.

This was a case were the Ts made the game better.

Final score: 45 - 41 BKJ's players were much more relaxed and closed the gap, but ended up a little short.

[Josh Ovens]

Originally posted by RecRef
I have no answer but I do have a question for your partner. If this would have been a JV game would he have Td the coach?

Maybe he was a little gun-shy under the big lights???

my question to you is, what if he was 20 year vet, would you have done the same thing?
you know, i think as a rookie, sometimes you have to learn and live YOUR own mistakes. hes gonna haev to get a feel for what his FINE LINE is gonna be. maybe the coach did cross it that night, but i m sure he went home and thought abuot it, which is important.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by stripes
As 3Q goes on, chirping gets worse. Coach gets really mad a couple of times in 2nd half and partner just tries to talk him down.

I put whistle in my mouth (to call T) and partner syas to me, "I've got it." I think good he'll T and we'll go on. Nope. Pushes the coach back to the bench, we shoot the shots and the game ends uneventfully.

A "T" in this situation, :30 to go after he's pretty much run wild all game doesn't really compute. I think your partner made the right decision.

HOWEVER....

Your partner should not have let this goofball ride him for so long. He's to be commended for having a thick skin and trying to manage the coaches, but he's going to have to learn that there comes a time when you gotta be the bad guy and **WHACK**. And when that time comes YOU MUST ACT.

You said yourself this coach likes to "test" officials. He figured out pretty quick your partner wouldn't T him, so he just kept riding him. He obviously left you alone because he knew you wouldn't let him get away with it.

I'm also wondering, like a couple of the other folks, why maybe you didn't whack him instead.

I had a game the other day (2-person crew) where one player was chirping A LOT to my less-experienced partner, but he just argued with him, or tried to talk him down. Later on, I'm in transition from T to L and I see this player getting right in my P's face yelling, with my P (for some reason) not doing anything. Enough! I whacked him from 50 feet away. After the game, I told my P that we're here to ref, not to endure a non-stop stream of b****ing and whining.

SIGH, my second T all season through 45 games (I consider myself very lucky this year).

Just my thoughts...

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by williebfree
Middle school game tonight

...

In the quiet as my partner prepares to administer the FTs I hear BKJ... "No way! He wasn't shooting! He can't be shooting! Hey Ref, get in the game! Where did you come up with that call?"

I raise my hand (Universal Stop sign) and clearly state "Coach, we're shooting two. I have heard enough."

BKJ: "I will let you know when I am done!"

(Tweet) (Signal the T) Report to the table: "I have a direct technical on the coach for unsportsmanlike conduct."

BKJ: (Standing about 8 feet away from me, with fists clinched and veins popping out of the side of his neck.)
"I said I will let you know when I am done!"

(Tweet) (Signal the T) Report to the table: "I have a second direct technical on the coach for unsportsmanlike conduct. Coach you are now done. Please leave the gym now."

Asst coach is embarassed by BKJ's conduct and parents from BOTH teams give a standing O as my partner oversees BKJ stomping out of the gym.

This was a case were the Ts made the game better.

Final score: 45 - 41 BKJ's players were much more relaxed and closed the gap, but ended up a little short.

This has been said before but middle school games usually combine the rawest play with the loudest coaches & the least experienced refs. By far the hardest to work, or even watch. It's not surprising that when you have 1 coach or ref who is willing to act as the adult around all these children that the game improves significantly. Good job Willie!

[dhodges007]

Originally posted by moose69
Realistically there should be nothing different from calling a T then from calling a block or hack, i mean they are just foul, right?
TR

I agree, but don't call one FOR your partner. As the experienced official if your partner needs your help. Talk to the coach or captain or whoever is giving you the problem. Once you talk to them, you deal with it. But I wouldn't suggest giving a T "for" your partner. IMO I think you did the right thing by letting your partner handle it.

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
Your partner should not have let this goofball ride him for so long. He's to be commended for having a thick skin and trying to manage the coaches, but he's going to have to learn that there comes a time when you gotta be the bad guy and **WHACK**. And when that time comes YOU MUST ACT.

I don't quite agree. I think Josh is right that you should let him live or die with his call. You didn't need to act if your partner was still in the game. If he had the look of a scared puppy, then, maybe. Did you talk to him about this during TOs, inbetween quarters, and half time? What did your partner say in regards to how he wanted to handle the situation?

[DrakeM]

Stripes,
To me the issue is not taking care of the Coach earlier.
I agree that by the time it got too much for you to take,
the "T" would not have accomplished anything.
Now if he's really acting a fool, whack him regardless of whether your partner says he can handle it or not.
Obviously he has shown that he CAN'T!
I know you well enough and trust your judgement, that I know you would do the right thing for the game.
Post game, did you talk about Coach management with your partner?

Ciao,
Drake

[DrakeM]

By the way.
Three criteria for a "T" that I learned this summer.
1. Does it fit?
2. Did it accomplish what you wanted it to?
3. Can it be defended? (By the power's that be, that is.)

[RecRef]

Originally posted by Josh Ovens

my question to you is, what if he was 20 year vet, would you have done the same thing?
you know, i think as a rookie, sometimes you have to learn and live YOUR own mistakes. hes gonna haev to get a feel for what his FINE LINE is gonna be. maybe the coach did cross it that night, but i m sure he went home and thought abuot it, which is important.

I cannot speak for the rest of the country but to become a varsity ref in my association takes many years. Years of evaluation at the Frosh and JV levels, working with varsity officials who will file written reports on you to both the BOD, the assigner(s), with a copy going to the ref. BTW, written evaluations are also used between varsity officials. So, contrary to what I said about the bright lights, by the time one gets to doing varsity games he/she is no rookie.

As to the coach going home and thinking about it, yes he will. “I got away with it tonight; I’ll do it again another time.”

[stripes]

Originally posted by DrakeM
Stripes,
To me the issue is not taking care of the Coach earlier.
I agree that by the time it got too much for you to take,
the "T" would not have accomplished anything.
Now if he's really acting a fool, whack him regardless of whether your partner says he can handle it or not.
Obviously he has shown that he CAN'T!
I know you well enough and trust your judgement, that I know you would do the right thing for the game.
Post game, did you talk about Coach management with your partner?

Ciao,
Drake

I agree that the timing was not ideal, but honestly Drake, would you let a coach stand at half court and yell at you at any time during a game? As I said, I put my whistle in my mouth to call it and my partner stops me to say he's got it. I was going to T the coach.