kicking not a violation? possible ?

[mick]

Originally posted by bossref
No reason to make it "go away"!

...except for the rule.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
[/B]

However ultimately I agree w/ Mick, we have to call this to make it go away or otherwise players start to play "kick defense" out there and someone is going to get hurt. I am thinking explaining advantage/disadvantage to a coach who's star pointguard who just got kicked in the hand might be a tough sell especially when any intentional striking is suposed to be called a kick.[/B][/QUOTE]Tell him that the hand is part of the ball.

Then run!

After getting that out of my system,I agree completely with you,MN3.The kick was deliberate. It had to be called.

[bossref]

Not surprised by your response!

Some of us are LEGALISTIC officials.
Some of us are REALISTIC officials.
(my preference - common sense)

AND .... some of us are Jurassic officials.
You'll probably never change your stripes.

PHBT Whack or whatever !

[Jurassic Referee]

My point wasn't about legalistic vs. realistic calls.It was about you asking for opinions,and then stating that those opinions are wrong because they happen to disagree with yours.Why bother asking for 'em in the first place,then?

Next time that you ask for an opinion,Barry,I'll ignore your post.As usual,you really didn't want it,so it's pointless to respond anyway.

Btw,your opinion in this sitch isn't backed up by any rule.Mick's is.That's realistic!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 30th, 2003 at 04:03 AM]

[Hawks Coach]

JR
You are right to criticize boss for not being open to opinions when they were requested. However, a quick glance at the responses shows a split poll, while you suggest that all respondents were in opposition to his no call. I think that most (if not all) would agree that you call it if it you see more than one incident. All should agree that you can call it by rule the first time it occurs. The only real disagreement is whether or not you choose to enforce the initial violation.

There are many technical violations of rules that go unenforced (3 seconds!) except when an advantage is gained by the offender. There are other violations that are strictly black and white, and some that appear to be a little of both depending on circumstance. Here, boss saw advantage was given not gained by the defense's action and chose to pass on the call. This is done in many circumstances, so it is hard to say he was wrong to do so.

[mick]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
JR

There are many technical violations of rules that go unenforced (3 seconds!) except when an advantage is gained by the offender. There are other violations that are strictly black and white, and some that appear to be a little of both depending on circumstance. Here, boss saw advantage was given not gained by the defense's action and chose to pass on the call. This is done in many circumstances, so it is hard to say he was wrong to do so.

Hawks Coach,

Sitch: 6 seconds left. You are tied and are full court pressing; opponent makes a long pass down court to only two opponents in the area. The ball is received by both players who then stumble with your player falling to the floor. Opponent grabs the loose ball and starts for the unguarded hoop. Your player kicks at and touches the ball. You say, "That's okay. Don't do it again."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

[/B]

You asked for opinions at the bottom of your first post,BossRef.Could you tell me exactly why you think that your "opinion" is now right,and everybody else that responded contrary to your "opinion" is wrong?[/B][/QUOTE]Hawks Coach,there is my exact statement from the earlier post.I wondered why EVERYBODY that responded whose opinion was different than his was wrong.I then gave MY opinion,which was that I agreed with mick and MN3.I don't have a problem at all with the other posts,and I never commented at all on them.To be quite honest,if a T were called,it probably could be backed up using language in the rulebook concerning unsportsmanlike acts.

[Mlancaster]

This is great thread because it makes us all think about rules knowledge vs. game management and the impacts/ramifications.

(I am sicking to my guns on this one....NO CALL!!
w_sohl said it well that the defensive player put himself at a disadvantage....Why penalize the offense??)

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Mlancaster
I am sicking to my guns on this one....NO CALL!!
w_sohl said it well that the defensive player put himself at a disadvantage....Why penalize the offense??

Because the defender was smart enough to use the rules to his advantage. When a team is down 4 with 30 seconds to go, what do they do? They put themselves at a disadvantage by committing a foul. Do we call it? OF COURSE!! The fact that they are breaking the rules to their advantage does not change the fact that they are breaking the rules. We force the team that's ahead to shoot 1-and-1, even tho it would be to their advantage to simply let the clock run.

Similarly, the NBA used to give a delay warning to the defense for stepping over the OOB line during a throw-in. Teams would intentionally break the rule in order to see the offensive set. The officials correctly enforced the rule even tho the defenders gained an advantage from it (or at least, they thought they did). They've since changed that rule b/c it was deemed an unfair advantage.

If you want to change the kick rule to eliminate this possiblity, then by all means, change it. Otherwise, call the kick.

Chuck

[w_sohl]

If you put it that way I would be inclined to call a T for unsporting behavior.

[mick]

Originally posted by w_sohl
If you put it that way I would be inclined to call a T for unsporting behavior.

C'mon, w-sohl,
Why stop with the "kick"?
Yeah, you can call all fouls and all violations "unsporting behavior".
Not all rules are in place, but the "kick" is an easy call and we don't have to justify it to anyone.
mick

[w_sohl]

Originally posted by mick

C'mon, w-sohl,
Why stop with the "kick"?
Yeah, you can call all fouls and all violations "unsporting behavior".
Not all rules are in place, but the "kick" is an easy call and we don't have to justify it to anyone.
mick

The kick here isn't a typical kick that happens in every game. It isn't a reaction to a pass that might get by them. They are doing something that, as someone said in an earlier post, could create a serious problem if someone took it the wrong way. This particular kick would be unsporting and a good way to start a fight.

[ChuckElias]

While you don't want to make a molehill out of a mountain, you don't want to make a mountain of the molehill either. He kicked the ball, not a player. So penalize the kick. It's the easy call. And what's better is. . . it's the right call!

Chuck

[dhodges007]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

You asked for opinions at the bottom of your first post,BossRef.Could you tell me exactly why you think that your "opinion" is now right,and everybody else that responded contrary to your "opinion" is wrong?[/B]

Hawks Coach,there is my exact statement from the earlier post.I wondered why EVERYBODY that responded whose opinion was different than his was wrong.I then gave MY opinion,which was that I agreed with mick and MN3.I don't have a problem at all with the other posts,and I never commented at all on them.To be quite honest,if a T were called,it probably could be backed up using language in the rulebook concerning unsportsmanlike acts. [/B][/QUOTE]

Seems to me like the offense is illegally using his legs. Call the kick on him. Or give him a T for unsportsman like acts. When the ball is in the hands, the defense can go for it, but if it is between the legs, how is the defense going to get it? Kick at it, dive for it, or bend all the way down which takes them out of a good defensive position. I think the offense should be penalized for this, not the defense.

[mick]

Originally posted by w_sohl

The kick here isn't a typical kick that happens in every game. It isn't a reaction to a pass that might get by them. They are doing something that, as someone said in an earlier post, could create a serious problem if someone took it the wrong way. This particular kick would be unsporting and a good way to start a fight.

Was it below the waist? Was it intentional? What makes it atypical?
It's a kick. Call it.
Done.