Post Player

[guille]

Here is another situation (NCCA rules):

A1 is a post player and has the ball backing up on B1 aggressively. B1 has his forearm across A1's back trying to stop his progress to the basket. When the pushing by A1 becomes a foul and when the pushing by B1 becomes a foul?

Also could you mention the rule number as well?

Thanks!

[zebraman]

This is why the officials get paid such big bucks. You have to decide who initiated the first non-incidental contact and penalize it.

Z

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by guille
Here is another situation (NCCA rules):

A1 is a post player and has the ball backing up on B1 aggressively. B1 has his forearm across A1's back trying to stop his progress to the basket. When the pushing by A1 becomes a foul and when the pushing by B1 becomes a foul?

Sorry, don't have my book, but this would seem to depend on whether defender has established position.

As soon as the ball goes into the post, B1 is supposed to be "hands off", including the arm-bar. Using the arm-bar to prevent an A1 post move is a foul on B1

But if B1 has position and A1 backs in, it's a PC all the way. It all depends on the timing, which can be tough, because A1/B1 will no doubt be moving a lot. Did B1 push with the arm-bar first or did A1 displace B1 first? As the vets on this board always say, "referee the defense".

NCAA, for the last few seasons, as a major point of emphasis, wants more offensive fouls called for displacing the post defender.

[Mike Burns]

Good thing you clerify that it is NCAA, because in the NBA this is NEVER an offensive foul. At least not when Shaq lowers his shoulder, drives through the defender, and sends him in to the third row...
Ok, thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
As the vets on this board always say, "referee the defense".

I have heard this phrase, referee the defense, several times recently (including in the FIBA officials manual). Could you kindly tell me what this means?

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Primarily, this means watch the defense. If the defense doesn't do anything wrong then it is not appropriate to call a foul on the defense. With the same reasoning, if there is a situation that warrants a foul call (major contact, or players hit the floor, etc.) and the defense has done nothing wrong, then the foul should be on the offense.

Obviously these are general statements and others may have a better definition of Referee the Defense. Hope it helps.

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle

I have heard this phrase, referee the defense, several times recently (including in the FIBA officials manual). Could you kindly tell me what this means?

Most of us use this in regard to PC/block fouls as well as screening and rebounding action. If you know the position of the defender(legal or not) and who created the contact (offender or defender) this makes your call one way or the other a lot easier. If you "referee the defense" and know their status when contact occurs it is now much easier for you to get the call right and penalize the offense or defense accordingly.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle

I have heard this phrase, referee the defense, several times recently (including in the FIBA officials manual). Could you kindly tell me what this means?

The block/charge decision is based on whether the defender had legal guarding position. If she didn't, it's block, if she did, it's charge. If you were watching only the dribbler, or only the ball, you won't know where defense was prior to the contact. Sometimes legal guarding position is determined several seconds before the contact, and you've got to have already seen it. So keep more eye on the defender and less on the ball. It's possible to miss a travel, or a carry, but that's not as serious as calling block/charge wrong. IMHO

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

The block/charge decision is based on whether the defender had legal guarding position. If she didn't, it's block, if she did, it's charge. If you were watching only the dribbler, or only the ball, you won't know where defense was prior to the contact. Sometimes legal guarding position is determined several seconds before the contact, and you've got to have already seen it. So keep more eye on the defender and less on the ball. It's possible to miss a travel, or a carry, but that's not as serious as calling block/charge wrong. IMHO [/B]

We need to be careful here. When we are refering to refereeing the defense, the ball handler in our primary is still our #1 concern. Missing the travel/double etc. here because we are concentrating too much on the defender would be detrimental to the developing play as well as our a$$ when a coach is chewing on it soon after. "refereeing the defense pertains to the defenders position in relation to the ball handler and how contact is or isn't created. Never loose focus on the ball in this sitch in your primary. I have found that working wider helps to open ones vision to both the defender and the ball handler.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref

We need to be careful here. When we are refering to refereeing the defense, the ball handler in our primary is still our #1 concern. Missing the travel/double etc. here because we are concentrating too much on the defender would be detrimental to the developing play as well as our a$$ when a coach is chewing on it soon after. "refereeing the defense pertains to the defenders position in relation to the ball handler and how contact is or isn't created. Never loose focus on the ball in this sitch in your primary. I have found that working wider helps to open ones vision to both the defender and the ball handler. [/B]

mmmmmmm....I agree that working wider gets you a better view but I'm not sure I agree with anything else you said here. I've got at least 1 other partner, if I miss a travel he'll get it, and if he doesn't...well he doesn't.

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

This is often true when working 3 person mechanics pertaining to a partner picking up the violation. However I don't think the offended coach will enjoy the answer "but coach I missed the travel because I was refereeing the defense" when his star player recieves his 5th foul late in the game for a block AFTER the offensive player traveled. In two person mechanics your partner is often watching off ball and should not be focusing on the ballhandler.

[Ref Daddy]

I asked my old timer (23 years) mentor.

Says referee the defense because 80% fouls properly occur there.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by rainmaker
The block/charge decision is based on whether the defender had legal guarding position. If she didn't, it's block, if she did, it's charge. If you were watching only the dribbler, or only the ball, you won't know where defense was prior to the contact.

Juulie gets a gold star, and the "Post of the Day" award! Exactly right, Juules.

Chuck

[just another ref]

Originally posted by guille
A1 is a post player and has the ball backing up on B1 aggressively. B1 has his forearm across A1's back trying to stop his progress to the basket. When the pushing by A1 becomes a foul and when the pushing by B1 becomes a foul?

I tell players sometimes when they ask about a call later if you would have closed your eyes you would have had him.
What this means is that the defender had established his position in plenty of time, perhaps just sitting back in zone defense. Offensive player commits himself to go to the basket, sometimes backing in or making a spin move so he loses where the defender is. If the defender would stay straight up, it would be PC all the way. But too many times the defender, especially a young player, cannot resist extending his hand(s) or forearm to catch the dribbler coming in, which changes the call completely.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Juulie gets a gold star, and the "Post of the Day" award! Exactly right, Juules.

Chuck

Hey, thanks, I'll put it on my patch!