Rules Interpretation

[guille]

Hello,

I'm new to this forum and perhaps these questions have been responded before. I apologize is this is the case.

We play ball with the same group periodically and usually defence calls the fouls. We tried to follow the rules but I'm not really sure if we all understand the rules.

Situation A: Player A1 drives to the basket and B1 plants his body about 2-5 feet away from A1. A1 runs over B1. Is this a charging foul or a blocking foul? As far as I can read B1 should give A1 sufficient time to change his direction. How much is sufficient time? 10 feet? 5 feet?

Situation B: Player A1 takes a shot to the basket. B1 plays tight defence on A1 and attempts to block the shot. B1 touches A1's hand after A1 releases the shot. Is this a foul? Many in our group say that the hand is part of the ball and therefore this is not a foul.

I have more questions, but I guess these two are the most common "discussion" plays that I can think of.

Thanks,
Guillermo

[firedoc]

Situation A: This is clearly a player control foul (don't use the term charge) against the offensive player. Every player is entitled to a spot on the court as long as he gets there first and legally. Don't make the mistake, like most coaches, that the defensive player must be motionless in order for a player control foul to occur. The rule states that the defensive player must obtain a legal guarding position first, but he can then move laterally or backwards in order to maintain that defensive posture. If contact occurs on the front of his body...PC foul. If the offensive player gets head and shoulders past the defensive player and then contact occurs, it is a block.

Situation B: This is, in some ways, more complicated because it goes to the advantage/disadvantage theory. The hand is considered part of the ball while the ball is being held. After a shot, that is no longer true. If the contact happens after release of the ball, but while the shooter is still airborn, the shooter is still considered to be in the act of shooting. If you blow the whistle in this case, the number of shots will depend on whether the original shot was successful.

If the shooter has landed after the shot and the contact with the hand happens, you either disregard the contact or it is a personal foul which has nothing at all to do with the shot. The penalty would depend on whether or not you were in the bonus situation.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Smile a lot and have fun. Play on because you're only in it for the fun and athletic opportunity to get your blood pumping.

Situation A. No distance in feet is specified. The guard must first establish a legal guarding position - both feet on the floor and facing the opponent. After that, the guard's feet can be in the air and he may turn his body as needed to maintain a guarding position. In my mind and for your situation the question is "Does the dribbler have opportunity (distance) to avoid the collision and simply choose to collide anyway?" If yes, player control foul. If no, block.

Situation B. the hand is considered part of the ball when it is on the ball. If the ball is away, hitting the hand will not affect the shot and is generally not called as a foul by most of us. If the hand slap is a taunting type activity that happens again and again, pick somebody else to guard.

And welcome to the forum, Guillermo. Visit again. Become an official.

[Jay R]

Guillermo,

Re Firedoc's comment about player control versus charge. The term charge is fine when referring to FIBA rules. Then again, if this is rec ball, you are probably not following any specific rules. If you continue using this forum, you wil notice that the rules (and terminolgy) vary depending if it is NF, NCAA, NBA, FIBA.

[guille]

Thanks to all for the responses. What rules would you use for a recreation league? I thought that NCAA rules could be a good option, however I'm open to suggestions.

I have an NCAA rules book and I tried to keep our league under those rules. I could be wrong.

[dhodges007]

Originally posted by guille
Thanks to all for the responses. What rules would you use for a recreation league? I thought that NCAA rules could be a good option, however I'm open to suggestions.

I have an NCAA rules book and I tried to keep our league under those rules. I could be wrong.

I would use whatever is familiar to the majority of the players. If you have a bunch of people that only played HS ball, use HS. If you have a lot that have played under NCAA then use that. Just an idea...

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
In my mind and for your situation the question is "Does the dribbler have opportunity (distance) to avoid the collision and simply choose to collide anyway?" If yes, player control foul. If no, block.

Disagree. Time and distance are NOT factors when guarding a player with the ball (assuming the guarding position was not taken while the offensive player was in the air -- in that instance, the player must be allowed to land).

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by firedoc
The rule states that the defensive player must obtain a legal guarding position first, but he can then move laterally or backwards in order to maintain that defensive posture.

Originally posted by DTTB
The guard must first establish a legal guarding position - both feet on the floor and facing the opponent. After that, the guard's feet can be in the air and he may turn his body as needed to maintain a guarding position.

Both of these quotes are technically correct. However, I want to point out that when drawing the charge against the player dribbling the ball (which is what the original play sounds like), the defense merely has to get to the spot first. There's no requirement to establish legal guarding position before reaching the point of contact. If you have legal position when the contact occurs, that's all that matters. If you're guarding A2, but leave that player at the last second, jump into the path of the dribbler A1 and take contact on the front of the torso, that's a PC foul on A1. There's no time or distance required when guarding the dribbler (NF and NCAA).

Chuck

[kmref]

Both of these quotes are technically correct. However, I want to point out that when drawing the charge against the player dribbling the ball (which is what the original play sounds like), the defense merely has to get to the spot first. There's no requirement to establish legal guarding position before reaching the point of contact. If you have legal position when the contact occurs, that's all that matters. If you're guarding A2, but leave that player at the last second, jump into the path of the dribbler A1 and take contact on the front of the torso, that's a PC foul on A1. There's no time or distance required when guarding the dribbler (NF and NCAA).

Chuck [/B][/QUOTE]

Chuck-

Can you reference this rule in NCAA Manual? I'm not sure I agree with all of this.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by kmref
Can you reference this rule in NCAA Manual?

"NCAA 10-19, AR 20: A player who is guarding moves into the path of a dribbler and contact occurs. RULING: Either player may be responsible, but the greater respoinsibility shall be that of the dribbler when the player who is guarding conforms to the following principles that officials shall use in reaching a decision. The defensive player shall be assumed to have attained a guarding position when the defensive player is in the dribbler's path facing him or her. When the defensive player jumps into position, both feet must return to the floor after the jump before he or she can have attained a guarding position. No specific stance or distance shall be required. The guard may shift to maintain his or her position in the path of the dribbler, provided that the player who is guarding does not charge into the dribbler nor otherwise cause contact as outlined in this section. The responsibility of the dribbler for contact shall not shift merely because the player who is guarding turns or ducks to absorb shock when contact caused by the dribbler is imminent. The player who is guarding shall not cause contact by moving under or in front of a passer or thrower after the passer or thrower is in the air with his or her feet off the floor." (emphasis mine)

Chuck