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[DownTownTonyBrown]

I went and watched a matchup that I will be officiating about three weeks from now - it will be the third time these two teams play each other.

I am familiar with both coaches. With one of them I have officiated a lot of baseball games (he is a great umpire) and done a few of his basketball games. The other is a hot head that I used to T-up quite often when he was a JV coach. He likes to play a lot of head game stuff - asking for the number of who committed a travel 30 seconds after it is done and gone... and of course other stuff that is worthy of a T. This will be the first time I have worked a varsity game for him. This coach teaches a lot of skirting the rules type tactics - illegal screens, holding, off ball mayhem. (I actually look forward to working his games because of the challenge - and the level of play.)

I noticed a couple things during the game that went completely uncalled. Guard stops and passes on side away from Trail (2-man) then immediatly takes off for the other side of the lane and while the Trail is watching the ball (still in his primary area) the offensive guard throws an illegal block. It would be easy for the Trail to not see this - and apparently he didn't because it went on all game. I'm not certain that this is a taught tactic but it sure smacks of the coach's style. I'm gonna be watching for it and will call it - I can hear the coach getting excited already.

Second thing that the coach did was that all his timeouts were held at the top of the key - slopping water around in the middle of the court and then requiring an additional 15 seconds to clean up their mess. I seem to remember a rule that timeouts are to be held in the vicinity of the bench. Where is this rule?

The teams have split their matchups. In this game the "tactics" team won after not scoring a single point in the first quarter! Top flight, varsity boys basketball and not a single point scored by that team for nearly ten minutes. Then they comeback and win!

Someone help me out with the timeout rule reference and give me any advise about calling things that previous officiating crews have not recognized or called.

I found the rule 5-12-5:

• The 60-second time-out conference with team members shall be conducted within the confines of the bench area. Players shall remain standing during a 30-second time-out.

but this is specifically for the 60-second time-out. Can he be out in the middle of the court for his 30-second time-out?

[firedoc]

Personally I would not make a big deal if the coach held a 30-second time out near the top of the key UNLESS he seems to be intentionally stalling the resumption of play (like with a water spill). If you believe that he is manipulating you or the game there are remedies available, even if no specific rule exists.

I would warn the coach once against extending the TO artificially. If that doesn't help, it seems to me that you have 2 options. Number 1: Use rule 2 section # (NFHS rules) which says that the referee may make any rulings involving situations not specifically covered in the rule book. In this situation the warning could be a T for the second offense. Number 2: A T can be issued for any unsportsmanlike conduct. The person who defines what is unsportsmanlike is the official...if it smells like that to you, call the T.

Also, it seems that you would not be asking these questions if you knew that this particular coach was not a "howler monkey." You must not pre-predjudice yourself against any team, player, or coach.

[Dan_ref]

Hey Downtown, I think you're going to have a tough time
carrying all that baggage you'll be bringing into the game.
Leave the baggage at home & ref your game, it will make it a lot easier to get up & down the floor.

[Sven]

DTTB,

With the water wipe-up, he may be intentionally attempting to delay the game; hard to prove. But the reality is that the game has been delayed because of the spills.

IMHO, by implication, 5-12-5 requires that both types of times-out be at the bench location.

When the coach heads for the key, get his attention and say, "Coach, the time-out conference must be confined to the bench area."

Sven

[DownTownTonyBrown]

I guess I could stand where he likes to have his timeouts. But no one has answered the question is he really allowed to be anywhere he wants for his 30-second timeout?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
I guess I could stand where he likes to have his timeouts. But no one has answered the question is he really allowed to be anywhere he wants for his 30-second timeout?

Tony,the teams have to be by their bench area.Use the language of Casebook play 10.1.9. It says "still with their coach on the sideline" and also mentions "return to the court".They can't return to the court if they're out in the middle of the court.Just inform the head coach that he has to get his players by his bench area.

Btw,that is excellent advice by Dan_ref above(even though I hate to say it). Don't anticipate anything.Just be ready for anything.

[Tim C]

Maybe we are the two old enough to remember the following:

There was a time when players could not sit on the bench during Time Outs. This was long ago in another galaxy before 30 or 60 second time outs.

College Coaches selected to put chairs on the court so their players could sit and be away from the crowd behind the bench. Marv Harshman started this at Washington State, Jud Heathcoat was his assistant who took it to Michagan State were I believe Tom Izzo still practices the craft.

Now about "placement" of a huddle during a Time Out.

I would be careful. IF a team is allowed to hold it on the court "near" the bench area where does "near" stop and start. If you allow them on the court during a Time Out then how do you define "what part of the court where must they stand" (boy is that terrible grammar).

The "delay" portion is rather weak from my view. We wipe up liquid all the time from the court, even where teams hold a time on the court near their bench.

I would rather you simply tell the assistant coach that HIS MANAGERS are respponsible EVERY TIME to wipe the floor.

I still am a big believer in "picking your battles" and I think this one can be handled without controversy.

Just my quick view.

Tee

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Tim C
Maybe we are the two old enough to remember the following:

There was a time when players could not sit on the bench during Time Outs.

I would rather you simply tell the assistant coach that HIS MANAGERS are responsible EVERY TIME to wipe the floor.

I still am a big believer in "picking your battles" and I think this one can be handled without controversy.

Yup,I'm that old,Tee.It was the same rule for high school and college ball back then,too.I also agree with you that this isn't one that I'd lose sleep over.Just tell the coach he has to get his players over in front of the bench,and please be ready to clean up any spills after the TO.

I agree fully with your "picking your battles" comment too,BTW.

[Nevadaref]

By rule the TOs must be conducted in the bench area, but if a coach has a 30 second TO out on the floor I don't really care. However, if he would like to bend the rule like this then I would simply tell him that the water must stay at the bench. That would fix the spill problem and possibly will move him back to the bench as well, since he will see that if he wishes to give his players some water during the TO then he has to do it over there.

[dhodges007]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
I went and watched a matchup that I will be officiating about three weeks from now - it will be the third time these two teams play each other.

I am familiar with both coaches. With one of them I have officiated a lot of baseball games (he is a great umpire) and done a few of his basketball games. The other is a hot head that I used to T-up quite often when he was a JV coach. He likes to play a lot of head game stuff - asking for the number of who committed a travel 30 seconds after it is done and gone... and of course other stuff that is worthy of a T. This will be the first time I have worked a varsity game for him. This coach teaches a lot of skirting the rules type tactics - illegal screens, holding, off ball mayhem. (I actually look forward to working his games because of the challenge - and the level of play.)

I noticed a couple things during the game that went completely uncalled. Guard stops and passes on side away from Trail (2-man) then immediatly takes off for the other side of the lane and while the Trail is watching the ball (still in his primary area) the offensive guard throws an illegal block. It would be easy for the Trail to not see this - and apparently he didn't because it went on all game. I'm not certain that this is a taught tactic but it sure smacks of the coach's style. I'm gonna be watching for it and will call it - I can hear the coach getting excited already.

Second thing that the coach did was that all his timeouts were held at the top of the key - slopping water around in the middle of the court and then requiring an additional 15 seconds to clean up their mess. I seem to remember a rule that timeouts are to be held in the vicinity of the bench. Where is this rule?

The teams have split their matchups. In this game the "tactics" team won after not scoring a single point in the first quarter! Top flight, varsity boys basketball and not a single point scored by that team for nearly ten minutes. Then they comeback and win!

Someone help me out with the timeout rule reference and give me any advise about calling things that previous officiating crews have not recognized or called.

I found the rule 5-12-5:

• The 60-second time-out conference with team members shall be conducted within the confines of the bench area. Players shall remain standing during a 30-second time-out.

but this is specifically for the 60-second time-out. Can he be out in the middle of the court for his 30-second time-out?

Just a few thoughts.

If your organization uses the coaches box, inform him that even during a time out he needs to stay in his box. I use this all the time when a coach calls a time out to talk to me about a play. Coach I will talk to you but I need you to stay in your box. It is worth a try.

Let your partner know what to look for and have a great and extensive pregame.

Lastly, I have to agree too. Make sure to leave the "baggage" at home and just enjoy officiating the game. We are there for the kids no matter how big of an idiot the coaches or fans are. (present company excluded of course )

[RecRef]

A few thoughts –

First, as part of your pregame let your partner know what you have observed. There is no difference between you observing such as a spectator and as a ref during a past game. Next I would think about the trail setting-up his ark further back than normal. (Because of my lack of speed I do it all of the time.) If you set the top closer to the division line circle, your field of vision should be wide enough to keep an eye on not only the ball but the guard cutting across to make his hit. Or, the T can move himself OOB, down low where he is looking through the ball and towards the movement to the other side.

As to the timeout situation I really see little problem with it. JR’s references should cover it. But if you want more info take a look at the “Officials Manual” diagram 27, page 44. On a 30 second TO the T is close to the table. So what you the have here is, “Coach, the position shown in the Officials Manual I have to take is here. Both teams must be in front of me so I can watch them. Please move back NOW.” What can he say? Another track is to tell him that his players are creating an unsafe situation by bringing water “onto” the court. If you see that again, you will have to take the appropriate action. In this way, you can let him have his TO out on the court but for safety reasons you are not allowing water. What can be said about that?

The last thing, your statement – “Guard stops and passes on side away from Trail (2-man) then immediatly takes off for the other side of the lane and while the Trail is watching the ball (still in his primary area) the offensive guard throws an illegal block.” If I may say, read and remember 4.19.3. An intentional foul will stop this ASAP.

Let us know how it goes.



[Edited by RecRef on Jan 28th, 2003 at 07:57 PM]