Baseball Ump crossover

[williebfree]

Last night, I worked some MS games with an official who is a long-time baseball umpire (He has worked State Tourney games, numerous times). This is his 3rd yr in Basketball. His game management skills were solid. He had a "presence." However, his use of the "foul tip" signal for shots that the defender may have had contact on the ball caused minor frustration for me.

In one case, the action was in my primary and I had the angle on it... SO, I am whistling a slap on the shooter's wrists while my P is motioning "foul tip" (from the lead, far side of the lane). During the first dead ball break after this occurance, I mentioned this minor annoyance and he openly acknowledged that he had been told the same by other veterans.

I explained that in all the camps that I have attended, they suggested the the only time to use of the "foul tip" signal is in a case to show that the opposing team touched the ball before it went OOB.

Do other multi-sport officials struggle with this?

[RecRef]

Yes, but not all of the time, and it is a hard habit to break. I would actually like to see it added to the signals as an optional call. It tends to keep the coaches somewhat quiet.

The real problem is when I yell "Strike 3" on the court.

[williebfree]

The use of the "foul tip" is not necessary... If you are not calling a foul, it is obvious that you deemed the activity as legal.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by williebfree
The use of the "foul tip" is not necessary... If you are not calling a foul, it is obvious that you deemed the activity as legal.

True but it's kinda like the "not closely guarded" NCAA signal. If I'm not counting, it's not a CG situation. Why is there a signal?

BTW, I struggle to not throw a flag the first couple of weeks of the season!

[RecRef]

Originally posted by williebfree
The use of the "foul tip" is not necessary... If you are not calling a foul, it is obvious that you deemed the activity as legal.

Yes, I know that. Look at what I said..... OK. Now from a coach’s point of view, a slap is heard. Was it a clean tip of the ball that caused the sound and the deflection of the ball? Was my players arm hit in the act of shooting? Did the ref see what was going on? Now, if it was an "optional" signal, when it was used it would tell the coach that the ref saw the play.

Basketball has evolved over the years. What were the rules, the mechanics, and the way of officiating when I first played organized ball in the late ‘50s has drastically changed.

The signal could, IMHO, be an added preventive officiating tool, nothing more, nothing less.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by RecRef
The signal could, IMHO, be an added preventive officiating tool, nothing more, nothing less.

Except that it inevitably causes problems like the one mentioned at the beginning of the thread. Once official is indicating "tip" while the other official has his fist in the air.

Don't give the "clean block" signal until the play is clearly over and you are going the other way. Then if the coach yells, give the old up-and-down-clapping motion. As always, just my opinion

Chuck

[zebraman]

Originally posted by RecRef
Yes, but not all of the time, and it is a hard habit to break. I would actually like to see it added to the signals as an optional call. It tends to keep the coaches somewhat quiet.

If a coach thinks his player got hammered, seeing you give the "clean tip" signal isn't going to change his mind. IMHO, the only signals we should use in an NFHS game are the ones listed in the back of the NFHS rulebook.

Z

[LarryS]

I used to tip signal when the ball went out of bounds until I realized that if the coach thought his player didn't touch it, my little signal wasn't going to help. Now the only time I use it is if the coach yells "How can that be their ball?" Instead of yelling back, I use the tip signal...that way only one person is making a fool of himself (hopefully).

Did have a partner at the beginning of the season running hard to beat a fast break down court. Just as he reached the baseline the ball went in...he gave an absolutely beautiful signal that the player was safe at home...almost spit my whistle across the court.

[Brad]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
True but it's kinda like the "not closely guarded" NCAA signal. If I'm not counting, it's not a CG situation. Why is there a signal?

This signal is useful for when the coach thinks that you just aren't counting because you forgot. It shows that you are watching the play, but that the player is not closely guarded.

I do not use it very often, but occationally it is useful.

However, I abhor the "foul-tip" signal and it has NO place in our officiating mechanics. Why? Because sometimes YOu don't have the best angle on the play and you do a "foul-tip" signal to indicate a blocked shot while I am calling a foul!

Actually, it's never happened to me, but I've seen it happen to others and it does not look good!

[Andy]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

BTW, I struggle to not throw a flag the first couple of weeks of the season!

One of my buddies who had worked BB for a few years was working his first football scrimmage. He was on one of the wings and as the sweep play came toward him he observed a hold on one of the offensive lineman....

He immediately blew his whistle, put his fist in the air, and pointed at the offender!

He didn't live that one down for a few years...

[ScottParks]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Except that it inevitably causes problems like the one mentioned at the beginning of the thread. Once official is indicating "tip" while the other official has his fist in the air.

Don't give the "clean block" signal until the play is clearly over and you are going the other way. Then if the coach yells, give the old up-and-down-clapping motion. As always, just my opinion

Chuck

I rarely used the "up-and-down clapping motion". Usually, I just shake my head when they're calling for the foul. I NEVER use the tip signal. I was taught in camp and reinforced that if you see a tip on a play that results in a whistle from your partner, go to them and tell them what you saw.

[ScottParks]

Originally posted by Andy

One of my buddies who had worked BB for a few years was working his first football scrimmage. He was on one of the wings and as the sweep play came toward him he observed a hold on one of the offensive lineman....

He immediately blew his whistle, put his fist in the air, and pointed at the offender!

He didn't live that one down for a few years...

I'd of love to see that one.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by ScottParks
I rarely used the "up-and-down clapping motion". Usually, I just shake my head when they're calling for the foul.

I have no problem with that whatsoever, Scott. My only point was that if you're going to give some signal to indicate a good block, only do it if you're questioned. Don't do it when it happens, or else you could end up signalling "good block" while your partner's fist is going up. No signal at all works for me, tho!

Chuck

[ScottParks]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I have no problem with that whatsoever, Scott. My only point was that if you're going to give some signal to indicate a good block, only do it if you're questioned. Don't do it when it happens, or else you could end up signalling "good block" while your partner's fist is going up. No signal at all works for me, tho!

Chuck

I was trying to agree with you with my post, but I guess I wasn't totally clear, so

I agree with Chuck!

[ScottParks]

Originally posted by ScottParks

I was trying to agree with you with my post, but I guess I wasn't totally clear, so

I agree with Chuck!

Or should I say Mr. Chuck