Define Dunk

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by RookieDude
[/B]

Well JR...here is how I look at it.
If a guy is speeding and I stop him, and I see that he is not wearing his seatbelt...and btw he does not have his registration or insurance card...oh yeah, he dosen't have current tabs either...I could nail him for everything, and yes JR...then "I'm doing my job properly" as you stated.

[/B][/QUOTE]Dude,if you do nail him for everything you mentioned above,and the LAW now states that the total fines are $500,can you now tell the guy that if he gives you $200,you'll let him go?

To use your analogy,both a cop and a referee may make up their own minds as to whether someone is breaking a law/rule.They can call/charge someone,or let it slide.That's their judgement.However,if either of them does decide to nail someone,what neither of them can do now is inflict any punishment that is outside of the written law/rule that they are supposed to be enforcing.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Refneck
If a coach is stupid enough to let his kids take the risk, it serves him right if we catch them once in a while. The coach only has himself to blame.

If a team dunks before every game, the coach is to blame. In reality, it is usually a player or players that dunk in one warm-up. The coach can no more prevent an isolated incident than they can prevent players from doing any of a number of things players do, whether they violate rules or common sense. Some players just make bad decisions, and coaches cannot always control that.

Consistent problems of any kind are the fault of the coach. But the thing I like least about this rule (and the tenor of this discussion) is it seems to assume that player behavior during a specific warm-up is under the control of the coach. I can tell them not to do it, and I can tell them they shouldn't have done it and take corrective action after they have done it, but I can't stop the act from occurring.

I think that anything players do while legitimately on the court should be treated as player behavior not bench behavior. JMO - I know many disagree.

[Refneck]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

If a team dunks before every game, the coach is to blame. In reality, it is usually a player or players that dunk in one warm-up. The coach can no more prevent an isolated incident than they can prevent players from doing any of a number of things players do, whether they violate rules or common sense. Some players just make bad decisions, and coaches cannot always control that.

Consistent problems of any kind are the fault of the coach. But the thing I like least about this rule (and the tenor of this discussion) is it seems to assume that player behavior during a specific warm-up is under the control of the coach. I can tell them not to do it, and I can tell them they shouldn't have done it and take corrective action after they have done it, but I can't stop the act from occurring.

I think that anything players do while legitimately on the court should be treated as player behavior not bench behavior. JMO - I know many disagree.

Point well taken, I apologize if my post seemed terse. Of course I know a coach cannot control a player 24/7. I guess my point is that they should not be upset if their player causes them a tech for dunking in warm-ups.

[Hawks Coach]

refneck
I now coach girls, so if they dunk in warm-ups, I give them a prize

When I coached boys, if they dunked in warmups, I was most definitely upset - with them not with the ref

[tharbert]

I'm glad pre-game dunks involove an indirect on the coach. I think we would be starting many more games "shooting two" if the NFHS made this a bench technical.

BTW Hawks Coach, IMHO, if the rules make pre-game dunks painful for the coach, coaches have incentive to provide leadership here. Refs can only administer a tech. The coach has many more tools at his/her disposal to keep this from happening.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
[/B]

Consistent problems of any kind are the fault of the coach. But the thing I like least about this rule (and the tenor of this discussion) is it seems to assume that player behavior during a specific warm-up is under the control of the coach. I can tell them not to do it, and I can tell them they shouldn't have done it and take corrective action after they have done it, but I can't stop the act from occurring.

I think that anything players do while legitimately on the court should be treated as player behavior not bench behavior. JMO - I know many disagree. [/B][/QUOTE]Coach,I gotta agree with that completely.I personally think that a coach should only be seatbelted because of something that they do.I think that part of my job is to control the behaviour of assistant coaches,players on the bench,etc. I know how to do that,and I'm not afraid to do it.I also know most of the time when a head coach is actually responsible for,or condoning bad behavior,also.However,if the coach is COACHING ,I really don't give a damn what he/she is doing.

The problem is,though,that if I'm supplied a penalty for a call,I should be applying that exact penalty fairly and equally.I can use my judgement as to whether or not I'm going to call something in the first place.There's nothing in the rules,however,that says I can change the penalty for something if I do decide to call it.

[Hawks Coach]

JR
See my initial response, because I think we agree 100%. I oppose the rule and its apparent underlying rationale, not the need to apply it. (And it isn't the only, or necessarily the first, rule I would change )

tharbert
There are many inappropriate player actions that occur on the basketball court for which a coach must exercise leadership to prevent and impose discipline when the standards are violated. This is the only rule I can find that involves an action by a player (as defined by role, not by rule ) who is legitimately on the court but performing an illegal action, and results in the coach receiving a penalty. Two free throws is punishment enough, IMO.

If you can find any other rule that punishes a coach with a seatbelt when a player is legitimately on the court, please direct me to it. If not, why is this action so much worse than fighting, swearing, unsportsmanlike activity, etc.? Make any player T a seatbelt, because a coach shouldn't allow players to behave badly at any time.

This rule makes no sense to me whatsoever. And the seatbelt penalty really only happens because by rule, these kids on the court aren't "players" because the game hasn't started. Somehow, we have more control over all of their potential actions?! Most refs seem to think so. I exercise a lot of control over my players and how they behave, but cannot agree with that assumption.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
JR
See my initial response, because I think we agree 100%. I oppose the rule and its apparent underlying rationale, not the need to apply it. (And it isn't the only, or necessarily the first, rule I would change )

Coach,I did see your initial response-and I certainly was agreeing with it,as well as your rationale.I don't like the concept either of having to nail a coach who basically hasn't done a damn thing.Hitting the player with the direct T is punishment enough,with the 2 FT's,the player being charged with one of his 5 fouls before disqualification,the team being charged with a foul towards the bonus,and the player being put on a short leash with one more T and he's ejected.But,if I do happen to make the call,I gotta then follow the rulebook-whether I agree with it or not.

It's not the only rule that I don't like,either.But,that and $23.48 will get me a coffee out in Portland.

[dhodges007]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Well JR...here is how I look at it.
If a guy is speeding and I stop him, and I see that he is not wearing his seatbelt...and btw he does not have his registration or insurance card...oh yeah, he dosen't have current tabs either...I could nail him for everything, and yes JR...then "I'm doing my job properly" as you stated.

[/B]

Dude,if you do nail him for everything you mentioned above,and the LAW now states that the total fines are $500,can you now tell the guy that if he gives you $200,you'll let him go?

To use your analogy,both a cop and a referee may make up their own minds as to whether someone is breaking a law/rule.They can call/charge someone,or let it slide.That's their judgement.However,if either of them does decide to nail someone,what neither of them can do now is inflict any punishment that is outside of the written law/rule that they are supposed to be enforcing. [/B][/QUOTE]

Man, I need to be a cop...$200 for one stop. woohoo

[dhodges007]

What about if they grab one of the side rims (before the game)? I had this happen last night. I warned the player and he was lucky the other team was in the locker room at the time.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by RookieDude
Home team Coach was informed and told that by rule he now has an indirect technical foul but, (and sorry purists) I told him we would give him some "slack" on the "seatbelt" rule.

If you wanna give him some slack, fine, but don't tell him you're going to do it. You've just opened yourself up to all kinds of problems. You'd be better off to leave it alone. It's his responsibility to make sure he's players don't dunk. He didn't. Sit down.

It won't happen to him again.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
It's his responsibility to make sure he's players don't dunk. He didn't. Sit down. It won't happen to him again.

I am sorry Tony. I think I read your post so quickly I missed the part where you went through the technique I am supposed to employ to "make sure" my plyers don't dunk. Does this involve some form of physical restraint, or an electroshock collar that goes off if a player's hand goes above the rim? I am amazed at the power we coaches are supposed to have over players.

Also, since I can clearly control their actions in this context, can I employ the similar techniques to make sure they never commit a dumb foul or turn the ball over due to an unforced error? According to this philosophy, I clearly can prevent players from doing the wrong thing, or, if they do anything wrong, make sure they NEVER do it again.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

I am sorry Tony. I think I read your post so quickly I missed the part where you went through the technique I am supposed to employ to "make sure" my plyers don't dunk. Does this involve some form of physical restraint, or an electroshock collar that goes off if a player's hand goes above the rim? I am amazed at the power we coaches are supposed to have over players.

Up late last night, coach?

Sorry but just because you don't like the rule doesn't make it wrong. You are responsible for the conduct of bench personnel. Before the game, players warming up are bench personnel. But according to you, it sounds like coaches shouldn't be held accountable for anything that bench personnel do. So, if your asst. coach stands and curses me out, you have no responsibility to restrain him, or even counsel him that such behavior is not acceptable, even before he does it?

Also, since I can clearly control their actions in this context, can I employ the similar techniques to make sure they never commit a dumb foul or turn the ball over due to an unforced error? According to this philosophy, I clearly can prevent players from doing the wrong thing, or, if they do anything wrong, make sure they NEVER do it again.

We aren't talking about an unforced error or a dumb foul, are we? We're talking about a deliberate act. Do you really think you would have a problem with players dunking in pregame if you:

1- Told then it was illegal
2- Told them it would result in a technical foul
3- Told them that there would be consequences if they did do it.

If that's the case, you must not have any discipline at all. And I don't believe that's the case. Sorry coach but I ain't buying.

Hope you get more sleep tonight!

[Hawks Coach]

1. Tony, I have never said that we are not accountable for the conduct of personnel on our benches. It's just that normally bench personnel are actually located on the bench (or should be), with the obvious exception of warm-ups, when they are on the court. That also means they are in close proximity to me. I do not always stand right over my players in warm-ups, nor do many head coaches. I observe parts of their warm-up, and even step in and say something when I should.

2. This is the only, repeat, ONLY bench personnel T that I do not think should result in a seatbelt of the coach. and I think it could be fixed with a simple rule change, but the attitudes of the refs appear to be that we are to blame for all player acts during warm-ups.

3. And no, I don't think I would have a significant problem with this, but one violation is a problem with the way the rule is written. But there are wierd things that go on in teenagers minds, and that is who we are talking about here. They do lots of things I cannot explain or predict, let alone control. and they do them with full knowledge that they are wrong and carry a penalty.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

I am sorry Tony. I think I read your post so quickly I missed the part where you went through the technique I am supposed to employ to "make sure" my plyers don't dunk. Does this involve some form of physical restraint, or an electroshock collar that goes off if a player's hand goes above the rim?

Not nearly that complicated. Try this: "Hey guys! DO NOT dunk during warmups!" See? Easy stuff...