Bart, there is a rule that says it's a T to have more than five team members participating simultaneously.

There is not a rule that says it's a T to only have 4 players participating.

The rule you're applying to the situation requires the 5th player to return to the floor illegally. If he doesn't return to the floor until he can legally do so, it's nothing. It's not illegal if he never returns. He simply must do so at the next opportunity. That is the intent of the rule.

Tony, I have the upmost respect for your rules knowledge. However, I do disagree with your intrepretation that "all" can mean 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 players. All means all. Case book 10.1.9...in part it reads "While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team reponds, "all" players must enter the court at approximately the same time". I have a hard time excepting any number other than 5 as being all. Obviously there is no exception noted, therefore, I fail to see how 2 or 3 or 4 can mean all. Not withstanding the intent of the rule, again, there is no exception noted. I sure don't mean to be sarcastic/condescending but I fail to see where the intent of the rule is to permit a team to play with fewer than 5 players when it has 5 players available. This may be your interpretation but I interpretate the rules to say that if 5 players are availabkle then 5 must be on the ocurt. If I use your reasoning, then a team may play with fewer than 5 anytime it wishes...for as long as it wishes. I just can't agree with your ruling on this.

BktBallRef, Are you saying there is No Penalty for playing with fewer than 5 players when available?

That's generally true, especially if it's a "mistake."

If the coach refuses to put in the 5th player, it's still not a T for playing with fewer than 5, but it is a T for delay / unsporting conduct on the coach.

The one exception *might* be in the case presented here -- after a TO, the ball is put in play under the resuming of play procedure. Then, 4 players rush onto the court.

It's unclear from the case whether that's an immediate T, or only becomes a T when the 5th player rushes the court.

In the case of a substitution mistake (4 enter, 5 leave, for example), it's only a T when the 5th player returns.

It's a simple mistake. No advantage has been gained. The team is, in fact, at a disadvantage. There is no intent to deceive.

Let me ask you this. Resuming play procedure - Team A has not responded to the horn and does not send a player to inbound the ball. The official places the ball on the floor and begins his count. B1 is confused and mistakenly thinks his team has the ball, picks up the ball and inbounds it. Are you going to call a T on B1 for making this mistake?

But it doesn't say that it's a T to play with 4 players. When you realize that there aren't 5 players on the floor, at the next opportunity to sub, the coach must send in a player. If not, as Bob said, it's a T on the coach.

Quote:

I just can't agree with your ruling on this.

No problem. But if Bob Jenkins isn't going to call a T in this sitch, then I'm pretty happy with my interp.

Until a rule clarification or case play comes out contrary to that interp, I think I'm on better footing than those who support a T. Look for reasons not to call a T when you can avoid it.

I'll assume you mean " 5th player illegally returns".
OK I can accept not giving the T if the player returns at the next oppertunity to sub. And I'll agree if for some reason the coach chooses not to play 5 players when available than it would be a unsporting T on the caoch for trying to show-up the opponent.

I think it's the best call, Bart, at least until the NF comes up with a definitive case play that says it's a T.

I had the opposite happen last night. I put the ball down and started counting when six players came on to the court. I didn't realize it at the time, but my partner saw it. So did the coach who called a time out before they even got to the ball. Nice catch coach.