Team A returns from a timeout with only 4 players on the court. Is this an automatic technical or may Team A call a timeout to get the 5th player in or can they wait for the next dead ball to substitute in.

I know 10-1-9 says that all players return at approximately the same time. It just doesn't say "all 5 players" return....

Thanks,
MJ

Game management stuff.

Shouldnt we hold on to the ball and "help" Team A get someone out there?

Its a "T" when you recognize it.

Bart, by the book you are right....But...doesnt this mostly happen due to confusion coming out of a huddle. 31 for example thinks s/he is out of the game and returns to the bench rather than to the floor.

A little "uh coach...one more please" almost ALWAYS fixes this real quick.

Sure there are situations where this could warrant a T but I bet you a hot fudge sundae that this is just confusion more often than not. In my opinion, a T here just tosses gas on the fire.

Larks

Let me clairify. I'm assuming the Time out is over and we have a live ball on the court. Its not a T untill we in bound the ball for live action.

Now that I reread that, his question does kinda sound like live ball.

I would say that if a coach gets his time out granted before I realize they have 4, I give him the TO. Of course back to game management....I'm also trying to make sure we have 10 during the obvious times to check (TO, New Qtr, Mega Subs etc)

Larks

Sure there are situations where this could warrant a T but I bet you a hot fudge sundae that this is just confusion more often than not.
[/B][/QUOTE]A hot fudge sundae?:confused:

Sigh,the training continues!
http://213.239.157.21/smilies/beerpull.gif

This brings us to the notion that the officials should count the players on the court after every timeout or intermission to make sure that there are 5 players per team before putting the ball in play. Also, it is good practice by the officials to make sure that during substitutions 1 player enters the court for every player who leaves.

I had this exact same situation last night, but only completely opposite. =)
Massive subs after an OB. I have my hand up counting players in trail, lead has ball on BL. I count six for Visitors. The V's set up in a 2-2-2 press. I keep my hand up and my partner does NOT put the ball in play but keeps looking at me. After about 10 seconds the crowd starts yelling "Put the ball in play, let's get the game going" (Yes in unision they chant this LOL) about 10 seconds later, hand still up, ball still not in play, they start screaming (including the coach) for a "T" because the Visitors have 6 players on the court. About 10 seconds later, the player who was supposed to sub out, realizes that his team is screaming at him to leave.
Avoiding giving the "T" and had a good laugh at it.

Nice work, fletch!

No, it's not. If the 5th player never returns to the floor, it is not a technical foul.

We've had numerous discussions on this before. The team playing with 4 hasn't gained any advantage. In fact, they're at a disadvantage. Allow them to bring the player into the game at the next opportunity.

The rule mj cited is meant to prevent a player from staying on the sideline and gaining an advantage when entering the court. It's not intended to punish the knucklehead who doesn't realize he should still be on the floor.

in the case book 10.1.9 the T is not given until the 5th
player entered the court during the play. If you let them begin play with 4 they can continue to play with four until
they can legally "sub" in the 5th player. As was stated before this is a preventable situation.

BktBallRef, lets talk about this, Not entering at aproximately the same time. Going by what you say, Situation- Team A, 4 players enter the game after a TO. Ball in play, officials notice and don't call anything, YET. Now, Dead ball, Team A's 5th player at table to enter the game, OK, come on in, BOOM, "T" for not entering at aproximately the same time. Is this the procedure?

The T isn't for not entering, it's for entering at an unfair advantage. For instance, sitting on the bench until the teammate gets the ball and then running onto the floor to catch a baseball pass and make an easy uncontested lay-up.
Or running onto the floor to block a fast break. If he enters as a legal substitution at a dead ball, there's no T.

Ooops i'm sorry I didn't see the unfair advantage part in the rule. Will you site the rule please? I remember awhile back in the discussion about 6 players on the floor when the official noticed at the time when a FT'er has the ball on the 1st of a two shot FT. No advantage on the first shot, do we also ignore this rule?

Bart, there is a rule that says it's a T to have more than five team members participating simultaneously.

There is not a rule that says it's a T to only have 4 players participating.

The rule you're applying to the situation requires the 5th player to return to the floor illegally. If he doesn't return to the floor until he can legally do so, it's nothing. It's not illegal if he never returns. He simply must do so at the next opportunity. That is the intent of the rule.

Tony, I have the upmost respect for your rules knowledge. However, I do disagree with your intrepretation that "all" can mean 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 players. All means all. Case book 10.1.9...in part it reads "While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team reponds, "all" players must enter the court at approximately the same time". I have a hard time excepting any number other than 5 as being all. Obviously there is no exception noted, therefore, I fail to see how 2 or 3 or 4 can mean all. Not withstanding the intent of the rule, again, there is no exception noted. I sure don't mean to be sarcastic/condescending but I fail to see where the intent of the rule is to permit a team to play with fewer than 5 players when it has 5 players available. This may be your interpretation but I interpretate the rules to say that if 5 players are availabkle then 5 must be on the ocurt. If I use your reasoning, then a team may play with fewer than 5 anytime it wishes...for as long as it wishes. I just can't agree with your ruling on this.

BktBallRef, Are you saying there is No Penalty for playing with fewer than 5 players when available?

That's generally true, especially if it's a "mistake."

If the coach refuses to put in the 5th player, it's still not a T for playing with fewer than 5, but it is a T for delay / unsporting conduct on the coach.

The one exception *might* be in the case presented here -- after a TO, the ball is put in play under the resuming of play procedure. Then, 4 players rush onto the court.

It's unclear from the case whether that's an immediate T, or only becomes a T when the 5th player rushes the court.

In the case of a substitution mistake (4 enter, 5 leave, for example), it's only a T when the 5th player returns.

It's a simple mistake. No advantage has been gained. The team is, in fact, at a disadvantage. There is no intent to deceive.

Let me ask you this. Resuming play procedure - Team A has not responded to the horn and does not send a player to inbound the ball. The official places the ball on the floor and begins his count. B1 is confused and mistakenly thinks his team has the ball, picks up the ball and inbounds it. Are you going to call a T on B1 for making this mistake?

But it doesn't say that it's a T to play with 4 players. When you realize that there aren't 5 players on the floor, at the next opportunity to sub, the coach must send in a player. If not, as Bob said, it's a T on the coach.

Quote:

I just can't agree with your ruling on this.

No problem. But if Bob Jenkins isn't going to call a T in this sitch, then I'm pretty happy with my interp.

Until a rule clarification or case play comes out contrary to that interp, I think I'm on better footing than those who support a T. Look for reasons not to call a T when you can avoid it.

I'll assume you mean " 5th player illegally returns".
OK I can accept not giving the T if the player returns at the next oppertunity to sub. And I'll agree if for some reason the coach chooses not to play 5 players when available than it would be a unsporting T on the caoch for trying to show-up the opponent.

I think it's the best call, Bart, at least until the NF comes up with a definitive case play that says it's a T.

I had the opposite happen last night. I put the ball down and started counting when six players came on to the court. I didn't realize it at the time, but my partner saw it. So did the coach who called a time out before they even got to the ball. Nice catch coach.