Rule changes

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

You know what Snaqs? I've been using the wrong rule in this case. The throw-in hasnt ended without being legally touched so that's why we cant begin a b/c count.

...

I've always felt the rule and case books should more clearly spell out when a 10-second count should start on a throw-in. Hopefully if this rule is changed the NFHS might throw some case plays in the mix to address the 10-second count.

As far as NCAA rules I think it's inconsistent that on a throw-in the shot clock starts immediately upon a throw-in being legally touched but the 10-second count wouldn't.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I've always felt the rule and case books should more clearly spell out when a 10-second count should start on a throw-in.

Exactly what is unclear? The count starts when there is team control and the ball has backcourt status.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Exactly what is unclear? The count starts when there is team control and the ball has backcourt status.

Section 10. (Men) 10-Second Violation
An inbounds player (and his team) shall not be in continuous control of a ball that is in his back court for 10 consecutive seconds.

That is all that the rules says. With all the other verbiage we have for other rules this is pretty bare bones especially since we have shot clock implications that are contradictory to the 10-second count if a throw-in is tipped.

It's pretty clear that when the ball is at the disposal of a thrower-in that the ball has neither front court nor back court status yet they felt it necessary to tell us that a throw-in from a spot adjacent to front court can be thrown to a person in the back court. Why is that spelled out in the rule book?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Section 10. (Men) 10-Second Violation
An inbounds player (and his team) shall not be in continuous control of a ball that is in his back court for 10 consecutive seconds.

That is all that the rules says. With all the other verbiage we have for other rules this is pretty bare bones especially since we have shot clock implications that are contradictory to the 10-second count if a throw-in is tipped.

It's pretty clear that when the ball is at the disposal of a thrower-in that the ball has neither front court nor back court status yet they felt it necessary to tell us that a throw-in from a spot adjacent to front court can be thrown to a person in the back court. Why is that spelled out in the rule book?

My guess is they added it just to clear up a misconception, it wouldn't be the only redundant rule in the book, either.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

My guess is they added it just to clear up a misconception, it wouldn't be the only redundant rule in the book, either.

Exactly. So what's wrong with clearly spelling out different scenarios for the 10-second count especially since the 10-second rule does not use the terms "team control" or "back court status" which Camron implies the rule does.

If fact what Camron wrote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Exactly what is unclear? The count starts when there is team control and the ball has backcourt status.

would tell us to immediately start the 10-second count upon a tip because there would be TC (inherited from the throw-in) and back court status (inherited from the player who tipped the ball).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Section 10. (Men) 10-Second Violation
An inbounds player (and his team) shall not be in continuous control of a ball that is in his back court for 10 consecutive seconds.

That is all that the rules says.

I thought we were talking about HS rules where there is no shot clock and, before now, there was no team control on the throwin.

Under that context....covering the timeframe where you always felt the rule was not adequate, what exactly was missing or unclear? Some things are just that simple.

I just noticed, while looking at the NCAA book, that player control is technically defined to exist during the throw-in.

Art. 1. A player shall be in control when:
a. Holding a live ball; or
b. Dribbling a live ball while inbounds.

Hmmm.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I thought we were talking about HS rules where there is no shot clock and, before now, there was no team control on the throwin.

Under that context....covering the timeframe where you always felt the rule was not adequate, what exactly was missing or unclear? Some things are just that simple.

I just noticed, while looking at the NCAA book, that player control is technically defined to exist during the throw-in.

Art. 1. A player shall be in control when:
a. Holding a live ball; or
b. Dribbling a live ball while inbounds.

Hmmm.

But the rule does not say player control nor team control to have a 10-second count. It says continuous control. And we have the situation where if a team has the ball in the front court and the defense tips the ball into the back court we start the count as soon as the ball attains back court status. That flies directly in the face of what most interpret as to when to start the BC count for throw-ins, doesn't it?

So you are doing your pregame. And the sitch posed is: we have a throw-in after a made basket (NCAA rules) and a) B1 tips the ball and the ball bounces in the BC or b) A2 tips the ball and the ball bounces in the BC. When should the 10-second count start? We know that the shot clock starts immediately in both cases.

And pretend I'm a young official working his first career JuCo game so I have my rule book in hand looking for a clear reference. And this young official just reviewed how A1, in the FC, passes to A2 but the ball is tipped into the BC by B2 and this young officials knows that we start the 10-second as soon as the ball attains BC status.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

But the rule does not say player control nor team control to have a 10-second count. It says continuous control.

It says a player or team may not be in continuous control. I'm not sure what's missing.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And we have the situation where if a team has the ball in the front court and the defense tips the ball into the back court we start the count as soon as the ball attains back court status. That flies directly in the face of what most interpret as to when to start the BC count for throw-ins, doesn't it?

Yes, because currently the required element of team control isn't present until a player controls it inbounds. Under the proposed rule, that will change. Unless they make the required exceptions (I'm assuming they'll model the changes after the NCAA, but you never know).

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

But the rule does not say player control nor team control to have a 10-second count. It says continuous control. And we have the situation where if a team has the ball in the front court and the defense tips the ball into the back court we start the count as soon as the ball attains back court status. That flies directly in the face of what most interpret as to when to start the BC count for throw-ins, doesn't it?

So you are doing your pregame. And the sitch posed is: we have a throw-in after a made basket (NCAA rules) and a) B1 tips the ball and the ball bounces in the BC or b) A2 tips the ball and the ball bounces in the BC. When should the 10-second count start? We know that the shot clock starts immediately in both cases.

And pretend I'm a young official working his first career JuCo game so I have my rule book in hand looking for a clear reference. And this young official just reviewed how A1, in the FC, passes to A2 but the ball is tipped into the BC by B2 and this young officials knows that we start the 10-second as soon as the ball attains BC status.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It says a player or team may not be in continuous control. I'm not sure what's missing.



Yes, because currently the required element of team control isn't present until a player controls it inbounds. Under the proposed rule, that will change. Unless they make the required exceptions (I'm assuming they'll model the changes after the NCAA, but you never know).

That's the problem Snaq's, I am talking about the NCAA rule. And nobody has yet to point out where there is an exception written for the 10-second BC count that differentiates between and a tipped pass from the FC and a tipped throw-in. I say the NCAA needs to elaborate more on the rule, but Camron says that rule was clearly written.