effecting the outcome

[Nevadaref]

I would like opinions on the following play.
Please bear in mind the following definitions when you give your answers:
4-12-1 ...A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. There is no player control when, during a jump ball, a jumper catches the ball prior to the ball touching the floor or a non-jumper, or during an interrupted dribble.

4-15-1 ...A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

4-15-3 ...The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor.

4-15-4 ...The dribble ends when:
c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.

4-15-4 Note 2: A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.

4-15-5 ...An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler. There is no player control during an interrupted dribble.

The situation is:
GV game
Team A is leading 34-32 with about 1:30 to play in the 4th quarter. Team B has the ball. I am working the trail position opposite the table. I am standing on the sideline at the top of the key. This is a two man crew and my partner, obviously in the lead position, is someone I like and trust and have always worked well with before.
Team B is swinging the ball around the perimeter when they throw a pass to the wing on my side near the three point line. A1 leaps in front of B1 and deflects the pass. The ball hits B1 and goes over her head and returns to the floor. A1 is the first to get to it, but because of the pressure by B1 is only able to bat the ball forward down the sideline. I now turn to my right and watch both girls and the ball run down the sideline directly in front of me. I would have to say that I was 90% sure that I would have to make an OOB call here, but amazingly A1 is again the first to reach the ball and saves the ball by directing it diagonally forward toward her basket while tip-toeing along the sideline. At this time the ball is a few feet in front of her. I race down the sideline OOB and have reached a position that is even with A1 near the 28-foot line just as she catches up with the ball. The ball bounces up into the area of her stomach and she pushes the ball back to the floor with both hands, continues running toward the basket, and when the ball rebounds from the floor she touches it with only one hand and pushes it back to the floor.
At this time she has a clear path to the basket and has left B1 several paces behind her. Now my partner blows the whistle. He is diagonally opposite us at the free-throw line extended in the backcourt. He calls a double dribble violation as he closes to half court.
We gave the ball back to Team B who then scored to tie the game at 34. Team A then tried to hold for the last shot, but Team B stole the ball with 30 seconds left. After a time-out Team B held for the last shot and made a buzzer beater to win 36-34.
The two of us discussed this play on the way home in the car quite extensively and even stopped to pull out the rules book from our bags. We agree on the description of the play, but have trouble with when A1 had player control, when she was dribbling, and if that dribble ended when she touched the ball with both hands.
I have no problem with my partner helping me on the play as he probably had a better angle to see the play even though I was much closer, as he was on the frontside and I was looking at A1's backside as I ran down the sideline.
I am just concerned with whether or not he was right. If he wasn't, the score would have very likely been 36-32 in favor of Team A as this girl had an uncontested lay-up.

[Mark Dexter]

4-15-4 Note 2 covers this for me - until the ball "bounce[d] up into the area of her stomach," she didn't have control. (Remember - holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds gives player control.) Because she never had control, and was never dribbling, she is allowed to start a dribble - no violation here.

[devdog69]

4-15-1 ...A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

The official judged that she started a dribble by batting the ball to the floor during this sideline dance. That's his judgement and has good foundation in this rule, I think. Don't know that I would have called it that way, but he did.

[Lotto]

A1 leaps in front of B1 and deflects the pass.

Clearly no control by A1 here.

A1 is the first to get to it, but because of the pressure by B1 is only able to bat the ball forward down the sideline.

Since A1 never held the ball, again no control by A1.

...but amazingly A1 is again the first to reach the ball and saves the ball by directing it diagonally forward toward her basket while tip-toeing along the sideline.

It's hard to figure out what's happening here, since "directing" the ball could mean simply tapping it forward (in which case A1 still doesn't have control and this isn't the beginning of a dribble) or sort of catching it in one hand and guiding it forward (in which case A1 obtained control and this is the beginning of a dribble).

I'll deal with both cases below, but perhaps you could tell us which of these actually happened...?

The ball bounces up into the area of her stomach and she pushes the ball back to the floor with both hands, continues running toward the basket, and when the ball rebounds from the floor she touches it with only one hand and pushes it back to the floor.

Going back to the two possibilities that I outlined just above: If A1 has not begun her dribble, this is legal and she is dribbling now. If A1 has begun her dribble, the touch with both hands ends her dribble and the following bounce and touch would be a violation.

[BktBallRef]

My feeling is that the call was wrong.

More importantly, your partner that you know, trust, love, enjoy working with, etc., didn't trust his partner enough to let him make the call.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Lotto

It's hard to figure out what's happening here, since "directing" the ball could mean simply tapping it forward (in which case A1 still doesn't have control and this isn't the beginning of a dribble) or sort of catching it in one hand and guiding it forward (in which case A1 obtained control and this is the beginning of a dribble).

I'll deal with both cases below, but perhaps you could tell us which of these actually happened...?

Lotto, you have grasped the crux of the problem. This part of the play is crucial to determining whether or not the call was correct. There is no doubt that this player made the ball go the direction that she wanted while making the save, and because of this my partner believed that she had control. I do not think that she caught the ball while directing it back into the court with one hand. So, I must ask if being able to direct the ball constitutes control. The rules book does not seem to support this conception of player control.
However, the definitions provided in 4-12-1 and 4-15-1 seem circular. Specifically, a player has control if he/she is dribbling, but a player must have control in order to start a dribble! So it is truly not clear if a player can establish control and start a dribble all in one touch of the basketball. How about some feedback on this please!
I came up with an analogy for my partner to test player control in this situation. Say we reverse the direction of the play, so that A1 is saving the ball from her frontcourt into her backcourt. Everything else is the same. Now when she is the first to touch the ball, I asked my partner if he would have called a backcourt violation.
He said that he would not have. Hence, he now believes that he kicked the call and probably cost that team the victory.
The mere fact that both of us are still discussing this play two days after it happened shows that we care about getting the call right for the players. Neither of us care about who called it. We just wanted it to be correct. My partner really thought that he was helping me on this play, not making a call for me, as he believed that I was screened out and could not see the girl hit the ball with both hands due to my positioning.
For the record, I could not see her initially touch the ball with both hands while it was near her stomach, but did see her release it with both hands as she pushed it to the floor.

[JRutledge]

Even if everything happen the way you said it did, the call comes down to judgement. We can tell you all day the call was right or it was wrong, but without seeing it can be very difficult to make that determination from here. It really comes down to being in position and making the proper call and seeing the whole play and not guessing. I disagree that you partner could not have made this call if it was obvious and I believe the play was in kind of transition, he might have had the better look and made the proper call. But to make this very clear, most of us would have to see it. All the rulebook definitions is not going to matter unless you have the proper judgement to determine what took place.

Peace

[Rich]

...I've seen players chase after loose balls and never "catch" the ball. Picture a player chasing after a ball and in mid-stride starting a dribble. The ball was never "caught" or "held" but it was definitely controlled and definitely dribbled.

Had to be there. Give your partner the benefit of the doubt and move on.

And the truth is, I don't mind if a partner calls a travel or a dribbling violation right in front of my face in certain situations (well, unless my partner doesn't get it right of course). We don't always have our vision focused on the ball handler, and sometimes they do wacky things.

Varsity girls' game last week -- I'm trail and the point guard is bringing the ball up unguarded. I'm looking ahead, surveying the halfcourt defense. About the free throw line, the guard double-dribbles. My partner caught the violation out of the corner of his eye and called it.

What, I should be mad cause my partner called this in "my area?" No way. I thanked him the next time we had a break in the action.

Rich

[APHP]

Please set aside the situation above for a moment. Answer this quesiton: if you pass to a teammate and s/he tips/taps the ball giving it DIRECTION, is this not the start of a dribble.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by APHP
Please set aside the situation above for a moment. Answer this quesiton: if you pass to a teammate and s/he tips/taps the ball giving it DIRECTION, is this not the start of a dribble.

Not necessarily. Any touching of/by the ball will impart a direction to the flight of the ball. It doesn't mean that the player has control and it doesn't mean that a dribble has necessarily started.

[APHP]

If this touching is a controlled act and it gives the ball an intended direction--it is the beginning of a dribble. There is a case play somewhere (I'm too lazy to look it up) that goes something like this: Situation #1--A1 makes a pass to A2. The ball is off to the side of A2 and A2 touches the ball in attempting to gain control. This touching is not the start of a dribble. Situation #2--A1 makes a pass to A2 and A2 taps the ball giving it direction, this is the start of a dribble.

It seems obvious to me if the initial touching of the ball is a "controlled" act intended to give the ball "direction" it is the beginning of a dribble.

If the initial touching of the ball in the case above was a controlled act--it was the beginning of a dribble. Just as if when a player who is falling out of bounds hits/bats the ball to keep it inbounds as he is falling out of bounds, he may return inbounds and continue the original dribble..but not touch the ball with both hands and begin a second dribble.

[ace]

I havnt read all the postes in this thread just the first few. The call that you made (or shall I say didnt make) was a correct call. Your partener was out of postition to make the call from what your telling me. Thats my biggest fault mechanics wise (other than position) is ball coverage. If I'm offball coverage I hope my partner is only worring about on ball converage. If I see something I'm usually not going to call it unless its really obvious. Of course I still make a few foul calls here and there but thats becuase I better angle on some. Last weekend I was on trail opposite of table - Had a kid drive down the lane and carried. I called it because i saw it perfectly. Of course my partner (and officiating director) educated me some more on coverage areas during the quater break.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by APHP
If the initial touching of the ball in the case above was a controlled act--it was the beginning of a dribble. Just as if when a player who is falling out of bounds hits/bats the ball to keep it inbounds as he is falling out of bounds, he may return inbounds and continue the original dribble..but not touch the ball with both hands and begin a second dribble.

Of course,if you deem the initial touching "control",it is the start of a dribble.That was the point of the original question by Nevada.They were wondering if they should have deemed "control"in that particular case.The answer is(as it always is)-it's completely up to the calling official's judgement as to whether the player controlled the ball to start the dribble.

That's also why your last statement above isn't necessarily valid.If a player(who hasn't dribbled)saves a ball by hitting/batting the ball back in bounds as he is falling OOB,that player can legally come back into bounds and touch/grab the ball with 2 or more hands and start a dribble--as long as you deemed that the player didn't have control when they hit/batted the ball back in bounds.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by APHP
Please set aside the situation above for a moment. Answer this quesiton: if you pass to a teammate and s/he tips/taps the ball giving it DIRECTION, is this not the start of a dribble.

Players do this all the time without having control. Those times when a teammate makes a not so good pass and the reciever of the pass has to stretch out to get the ball, many times they bounce the ball, but I would not consider that a dribble (I hope this description made sense ). But this is why we get paid the big bucks. Your judgment has to come into play. I always try to give the benefit of the doubt when I can. But this is always going to come down to your personal judgement. This is why it is so important to see as many plays as you can. After awhile you know exactly what you are saying.

Peace