Argued calls last night

[Ridgeben]

If A1 shot, came down, took some steps then pushed I can agree. Shot counts. But that was not what I got from the original post.

[stripes]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
This worked out ok for you, but why let the coach come "a couple of steps on the floor" (emphasis mine) to question a call? Is that getting into T territory? Did you ask him to get back into the box or warn him at all? IMO, bench decorum and dealing with coaches well will separate you from the majority of other officials because most do not pay attention to the coaches and let the coaches do inappropriate things without penalty. Do a good job with the benches and it will reflect well on you. I think you are well on your way to doing this.

Stripes
I think Bard was saying that the coach asked for the reason for the ruling, not that he questioned the call. If done in the right way, during a dead ball when it is being reported, I can't see how this is anywhere close to a T. If the coach is criticizing by use of a question, that is a different matter.

Coaches are not entitled to be on the court, regardless of the reason, unless called by an official. The penalty is a T. Now I am not saying that the coach should automatically be assessed a T for what he did, but it has to be addressed. The coach needs to be in his box, even for what he did.

Maybe I didn't get my point across very well to bard. Answer the question, clarify or whatever the coach needed, but help the coach understand that he will not get answers on the floor, only in the box. Being on the court gets T's. Too many coaches, IMO, do not understand this because officials will not enforce the rule or will not get the coach off the floor before helping him.

[bard]

Just for clarification, the shooter collided with the defender prior to his feet returning to the floor. It was a pretty good collision. I concur that there would have been no PC if the shooters feet had hit the floor first.

In regards to the coach coming out on the floor, I did not have a problem with it for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, there were probably only 2' from the line to the bench--this is an old gym that I played in nearly 30 years ago. The coach can't very well stand up without stepping on the court.

Second, the coach was not challenging the call and was not being disrespectful. No big deal, in my opinion.

Good thought about not quoting chapter and verse, because it may be expected more often. I got caught up in the excitement of just being able to do so! ;-)

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by bard
Good thought about not quoting chapter and verse, because it may be expected more often. I got caught up in the excitement of just being able to do so! ;-)

bard --

I use the "quote chapter and verse" technique occasionally. It works very well, as a rule. I had one coach come back at me a couple of plays later with, "I suppose that's rule 5-9" I said, "No rule 5 is Scorers and Timers. What applies here is 10-6, Legal and Illegal Contact." Pretty well had him in my pockt the rest of the game. Felt great!

Two things: 1) You have to be right, or very, very close. The easiest way to pull this off is to memorize most of rule 4. Almost everything is in there, one way or another. And then memorize the bare bones of the other rules, and use only the rule number as in my quote above: "Rule 5 is Scorers and Timers". Most coaches have no idea that each rule number actually applies to several pages of material.

B) Use no sarcasm at all, and don't yell at all. Make it very relaxed and conversational, as if you expect him to already know this stuff. Don't use it on coaches who are really on the verge of losing self-control. Either use it early in the game, or only on coaches who have some detachment. You don't want to push some poor losing sap over the edge.

[Hawks Coach]

Stripes
I think when you consider bench decorum, you should be more concerned with what is being said and how it is being said rather than where it is being said. If a coach is behaving well and not giving you a load of BS, you should be ready to listen if he asks you a respectful question (i.e., is not questioning the call, but wants to know what you were calling). In this case, his approaching you at or right next to the sideline during a dead ball should not be a huge issue from the standpoint of bench decorum, IMO.

The coaching box rules give you the ability to warn or T somebody who is way over the line in terms of behavior, and should not be used to wield authority over someone who is one step over a physical line on a court, but otherwise behaving quite rationally and respectfully. You should be quicker to T or warn the idiot that is giving you trouble from within the box than to make your points with a coach who is communicating with you in a responsible manner.

If you did want to say something about his approaching you on the court, I wold first answer the question then point out that you would like the next question asked from within his area. If you have a coach who is not giving you trouble, you should want to maitain positive communication rather than have your first statement be something that shuts down communication. It's good game management.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
The coaching box rules give you the ability to warn or T somebody who is way over the line in terms of behavior, and should not be used to wield authority over someone who is one step over a physical line on a court, but otherwise behaving quite rationally and respectfully. You should be quicker to T or warn the idiot that is giving you trouble from within the box than to make your points with a coach who is communicating with you in a responsible manner.

Hawks' Coach -- The elegant wording of this paragraph helps convey the very good philosophy. Of course, you are absolutely right. I just wish all coaches were as verbal and circumspect as you!!

I think stripes knows this principle, but is seeing the various situations described here a little differently than some others who are posting. Also, I've noticed that the language on this board can be an enormous hindrance to our learning, sometimes. If we were all at camp together, I'm not sure we'd all like each other, but it would be easier for us to talk about situations, since we'd at least all see the same physical set-ups. Whether we all NOTICED the same things would of course be another matter...