Last night was one of the times that made me appreciate this board, because I would otherwise have booted a couple of calls...

Boys, 8A game. A1 drives the lane and puts up a shot. Crashes into B1, who had good position, after the release of the shot. The shot goes in and I wave it off with the PC. Coach A, who is also an official, gives me an earful that the basket should have counted. Me, "Coach, 4.19 in the Case book says a player charged with a PC foul cannot score."

Same game, team A shoots 2 airballs from short distance. My P, a 5 year vet, calls A for 3-seconds because the "ball never hit the rim." I say nothing, and their is no complaint from anyone. I question him at half about when team control ends. He pulls out his book and says, "You're right. I shouldn't have called that."

Towards end of the game, B is blowing A out of the water by 30 or so, and B has the ball. A1 runs up and gives B1 a 2-handed shove in the back. Clear intentional foul. I call it and go to bench to report. Coach A comes a couple of steps out on the floor and asks if I called the intentional foul because I heard him yelling "Foul! Foul!" or because of the push. I say it was obviously because of the push, "Because I never listen to you anyway coach!" (For what it's worth, I really didn't hear the coach yelling. The gym was pretty loud at that time.)

It was said in the right spirit, and the coach laughed and said it was a good call.

I bet you were feeling "On top of the world" after that game.

Well.... at least your confidence was boosted. Atta Boy to BARD!

Why would the coach yell"Foul" at the end of a 30 point game?

I'm glad he was able to learn from it. If your partner makes a call like this and you DON'T ask him about it afterward, you are adding to the problem. Thanks bard for helping him, and in turn all of us, out.

Now not to come down on the anti-Rut side of things (because I agree that presence is as important, if not more important, than rules knowledge), but in this case, your partner lost more points in my eyes than he would for not having shiny shoes or a confident attitude! I'll admit I often judge officials I haven't seen before by their appearance and how they carry themselves (be honest, who doesn't?), but after making this call, I'd immediately write this guy off in my head as a guy who doesn't know the rules, and therefore, a not very good official.

<i>Do you have all the case number memorized or just that one?</i>

I have very few memorized, but thanks to a previous discussion on this board, I happened to know this one.

<i>your partner lost more points in my eyes </i>

Despite some shortcomings on his rule knowledge (he had one other call that was incorrect), I really enjoyed working with him. Just a nice guy. I don't want to spawn one of the discussions with Rut, but he was a good example of someone strong on presence and short on rules. He does need to improve his rules knowledge.

<i>Why would the coach yell"Foul" at the end of a 30 point game? </i>

Good question. I'm guessing he was either looking for a teaching opportunity or hoping for an opportunity for his guys to end on a positive note. Just before the halftime buzzer, he did have a kid nail a 3 from the division line. But that was the high point of the game for them.

This is a trick that a softball buddy of mine suggests. Memorize one or two common rule references that seem to be misunderstood by most people, and use it like bard did here.

It makes you look like you have the whole damn book memorized!

Rules knowledge can contribute greatly to your presence!! :D

But if the shooter A1 crashed into B1 AFTER THE RELEASE, the bucket would count. A1 would be called for a personal foul (push foul). This is not a player control.

The key word is AFTER.

This is NOT true for Fed. If the airborne shooter commits a foul, it is a player control foul and the basket is waved off even if the crash happens after the release.

This is an NCAA men's rule only. There is no airborne shooter in NCAA mens. In NF and NCAA women's there is an airborne shooter rule so you CANNOT count the basket in a game with NF rules.

(Sorry for the double post--got beaten to the punch)

The ball becomes dead immediately on a player control foul, he made the right call. When airborne a1 comes down on b1 it is a player control foul on a1.

I think you are getting into an area I would try to avoid here. Quoting references, unless can quote them, all can get you into trouble. What do you say to a coach who questions another ruling and you don't know the reference? What if he asks you what the reference is? I believe you can lose credibility if you are asked another time and you don't know the answer as quickly as you spout off the first one. Smart coaches will ask for the reference, I've seen it happen. Why not just say "you can never score with a PC foul"? Same message and not likely to get the coach after you about another reference point.

This worked out ok for you, but why let the coach come "a couple of steps on the floor" (emphasis mine) to question a call? Is that getting into T territory? Did you ask him to get back into the box or warn him at all? IMO, bench decorum and dealing with coaches well will separate you from the majority of other officials because most do not pay attention to the coaches and let the coaches do inappropriate things without penalty. Do a good job with the benches and it will reflect well on you. I think you are well on your way to doing this.

I'm confused
 

Bard, I'm a little confused. You said that A1 crashed into B1 after the shot was in the air. Unless A1 was still an airborne shooter, then there would be no player control foul. The foul would have to be simply a push after the shot. For it to be a player control foul, A1 would have to still be in control of the ball ie. driving to the basket when the contact occured or be an airborne shooter and crash into B1 on the way back down regardless of whether the contact was before or after the ball was in flight. Typically, we will pass on the push call on the shooter after the shot unless it is really severe because it is a really hard sell.

This worked out ok for you, but why let the coach come "a couple of steps on the floor" (emphasis mine) to question a call? Is that getting into T territory? Did you ask him to get back into the box or warn him at all? IMO, bench decorum and dealing with coaches well will separate you from the majority of other officials because most do not pay attention to the coaches and let the coaches do inappropriate things without penalty. Do a good job with the benches and it will reflect well on you. I think you are well on your way to doing this.

Stripes
I think Bard was saying that the coach asked for the reason for the ruling, not that he questioned the call. If done in the right way, during a dead ball when it is being reported, I can't see how this is anywhere close to a T. If the coach is criticizing by use of a question, that is a different matter.

Ralph, I disagree
 

Ralph, I believe that if a1 shoots then crashes into b1 you still have a player control foul on a1. It does not matter if he shot it before he crashed or not. This basket would be waived off. Read 4.19.6 in the case book.

Re: Ralph, I disagree
 

What Ralph said above (I think) was that if A1 had returned to the floor after a shot, he was no longer an airborne shooter. Therefore, no PC foul.