Why??

[zebraman]

Chuck,

I'd say that it's more like 99% of the NFHS rules are applied the same. In Jeff's list, he cites an experimental rule and also one where it sounds like he's confused as to how to handle it (the players doing the "circle the wagons" routine) even thought NFHS has made that very clear EXACTLY how they want it handled. Coaching boxes are an option specifically allowed by NFHS. So basically the coin flip is the only "real difference" (that certainly is a weird one isn't it?) and I have yet to hear a difference in regards to handling "during the game situations" although Jeff claims that he ignores the rule where we're required to notify coaches when they use their last time out (sounds like that's a personal problem rather than regional).


Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

You then listed exactly four cases where the rules varied from your state. So basically, I overstated the percentage? I suppose that is certainly possible, and I apologize if I misled anyone , but I think my point is still valid. The vast majority of Fed rules are applied the same way across the country. The majority of "regional differences" are found in our mechanics.

Chuck

This is how you are wrong. You are assuming that all rules are applied the same, just because we have the NF Rulebook. We all can agree that 3 seconds is in the rulebook on many levels. The reality on how it is practices is based on who and what you are officiating. It even comes down to who you work for. When we talked about my attitude about telling teams of their timeout status, I was ripped apart by those that try to use the rulebook as their proving what is right and wrong as it relates to the rule. But the reality, I do not work for or with all those folks that took a differnet stand than I did. They are not the officials or administrators that give us games in a conference or give us playoff games. I can give you many of examples of different conferences that have different rules they would like us to not make such a big deal about and those that want them called to the letter of the law.

There was an assignor last year that told the officials that work in his conference to not call a T for bookeeping before games in an open meeting. Well I guess someone called him on it and called the state or contacted the state to take issue with that application. He later came back and said he was wrong for telling officials that worked in his conference that, but still encouraged the same practice in the same breath. Now if you had to work fo this man, you tell me what an official might have to do? Now this is a rule and was clearly said, "if you work in this conference, this is how we are going to do it." Now if that is not a rule difference or application based on where you live or officiate, I sure do not know what is?

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
Chuck,

Jeff claims that he ignores the rule where we're required to notify coaches when they use their last time out (sounds like that's a personal problem rather than regional).


Z

When did I say that? You have a quote with me saying I ignore a rule? Or do you have a quote were I called the application of a rule being a "courtesy" in the way I apply it?

When the 20 second timeout rule was put in, it was widely taught to do the now approved 60 second signal in the State of Illinois. As a matter of fact, the year before this mechanic was approved by the NF, the IHSA used it the year before as experimental rule. The years before it was an experimental rule, officials were doing this based on the college influences in my state. Many Clinican were in IHSA Camps were teaching something that was not a NF Mechanic or an IHSA Mechanic or rule. On long switches the IHSA still wants us to go opposite the table on all foul calls, backcourt or front court. This is not a NF Mechanic. This is not a NF Rule.

I have heard many officials on all boards, in meetings and during pregames say, "I will never call 3 seconds, I will never call a travel during a varsity game and I will never call a T before a game starts," but I never see anyone talk about what rules they ignore. I did not realize that the NF all came in like the Goverenment and made rules that we can or have not broken or apply in different ways.

Peace

[zebraman]

He later came back and said he was wrong for telling officials that worked in his conference that, but still
encouraged the same practice in the same breath. Now if you had to work fo this man, you tell me what an official might have to do?

I'd call it like the NFHS wanted. If I even had the slightest notion that the assignor (who thinks he is above the NFHS), was holding that against me, I'd inform the NFHS. No sweat.

I have heard many officials on all boards, in meetings and during pregames say, "I will never call 3 seconds, I will never call a travel during a varsity game and I will never call a T before a game starts.

I think you misinterpret things. I've heard refs say they'll only call 3 seconds as an advantage/disadvantage call. Adv/Dis is in the NFHS rule book so that's consistent. I've never heard a ref say that wouldn't call a travel in a varsity game. That's ridiculous. They wouldn't get any games around here if that was their attitude. I will never call a scorebook administrative T before a game...but that's because I get to the table at 12:00 and have 2 minutes to fix any problems before the game starts. I think you're using selective hearing.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman

I'd call it like the NFHS wanted. If I even had the slightest notion that the assignor (who thinks he is above the NFHS), was holding that against me, I'd inform the NFHS. No sweat.

Good for you. But I do not work for the NF. When I start working for the NF or anything I do with the NF directly, I will take that attitude. I pay dues to the IHSA, not the NF. And even the IHSA is trying to make sure that they separate themselves from the things we do directly as an official, because they want to uphold the Independent Contractor status. When the NF has a National Tournament that I can officiate, I will be stirctly concerned with everything the NF stands for. Until then, I and many official (especially when they admit it) are going to be much more concerned with the Official's Associations, fellow official think over what the NF puts on paper.

Originally posted by zebraman


I think you misinterpret things. I've heard refs say they'll only call 3 seconds as an advantage/disadvantage call. Adv/Dis is in the NFHS rule book so that's consistent.

Advantage/Disadvantage is in the rulebook based on contact, not violations. If I am wrong, show me the passage and I will concede that point all together. BTW, the term Advantage/Disadvantage is not even the terminology of the rulebook. It is implied by the Tower Principle and other rules people, but not at all the verbage of the rulebook.

Originally posted by zebraman

I've never heard a ref say that wouldn't call a travel in a varsity game. That's ridiculous. They wouldn't get any games around here if that was their attitude.

I agree it is ridiculous, but I have heard it. I did not say the level of the individuals that said it or the type of officials that made that comment, but we cannot just talk about officials that are just at the top and doing varsity games. I am sure they heard that from somewhere and maybe just repeated it.

Originally posted by zebraman

I will never call a scorebook administrative T before a game...but that's because I get to the table at 12:00 and have 2 minutes to fix any problems before the game starts. I think you're using selective hearing.

I am at the table before you are, so I really do not see the point that makes.

The point is here that you make these general statement, then you repeat them enough so that you believe them after awhile. Of course it is selective hearing on my part, it does not go along with your orginal statement. You cannot prove that there are not "regional" applications but saying that 99% of the NF are applied. I guess that was based on a scientific study you did across the country or within states to confirm that percentile?

Obviously there must be some regional factors or regional practices, because if that was not the case, why put traveling in the POEs if everyone across the country is applying the rule properly? All they did in the POE on traveling was take the language straight out the rulebook and put it in that section. It is a rule, why did they have to do that? Why change the "elbow" rule from a T to a violation? I will admit that I "ignored" the rule calling swinging elbows, mainly because I called it once and you would have thought my skin turned white after I did it. Then was told, "do not call that" after the game. And there are many rules or mechanics that the IHSA wanted us to enforce, but the officials that do not enforce them, still recieved playoff games and still advanced far in the playoffs. That is changing a bit, but do not tell me with a straight face that there are no "regional" factors, when I had to adjust when I moved within my own state from the Western part of Illinios, to a Western Suburb of Chicago. Or better yet, what about those officials that move from one state to another and find that what they did back home does not work here now?

Peace

[ronald]

In my HO, i think the advantage/disadvantage concept with respect to contact had a lot to do with the physical aspect of basketball that the pros, college and hs seem to keep saying to clean up in their POE. When did this concept come into basketball officiating talk?

I do not recall reading that concept this year but have heard at least one official use it this year when we were discussing a play in a game.

Good players can play great defense with none to very light contact (fly weight contact) if they know that this is what is expected.

I have seen college games where there is a lot of contact where no shot is occuring or a bump out a mid court or of a player near an OOB line and the slight contact causes him to go out of bounds and nothing is called but when a player shoots and is touched with the weight of a fly or a slight bump the whistle 99.9% of the time goes off. That to me is a bunch of crap. What changed here to call a foul where earlier there was greater contact with no shot and no call. Seems like a double standard to me.

I have the perception that in the late 70's many fouls were called that are ignored today.

[zebraman]

Advantage/Disadvantage is in the rulebook based on contact, not violations. If I am wrong, show me the passage and I will concede that point all together. BTW, the term Advantage/Disadvantage is not even the terminology of the rulebook.

Wrong as usual Rut.
From the "Intent and Purpose" section of the NFHS Rules book: "A player or a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule." Since the 3-in-the-key rule was put in to prevent Lew Alcindor from posting up next to the basket and getting the ball for an easy slam dunk, the intent of that rule is pretty easy to figure for most officials.

Z

[kmref]

Rule applications don't exist for the purpose of allowing officials to move up into the college ranks. Each organization is entitled to establish their own rules, mechanics, and interpretations.

I would ask the question, why would organizations do things like the NCAA does? How would it benefit them to do so? It might benefit an official in this situation, but once again, that's not the purpose of these organizations. [/B][/QUOTE]


Own rules? Own Mechanics? Different Interpretations??

I think when J. Naismith created the game he meant for everyone to play it the same. The game itself has evolved and the rules along with it. The game is intended to be standard across the board.

The NCAA is the next logical step for most players, coaches, and officials. Don't a majority of these strive to compete at the next level? Imposing a standard(NCAA RULES)facilitates everyone becoming eligible to have the knowledge to perform at the next level. Athletes that travel to play teams outside of their area need to be able to play at a standard level. Officials need to call the game by the same set of standards. When officials differ, this should only be due to a difference in judgement not in rules applications, mechanics, etc.

Obviously, no matter what, all officials are striving to do the job to the best of their abilities. (Hopefully)

[rockyroad]

Interesting discussion...last season, I travelled to Indiana to work an NCAA tournament...I live in Washington State, and the other officials there were fron Boston, New York (upstate somewhere), Texas, and Arkansas...we had absolutely no problems reffing together, and - other than some strange accents - you couldn't tell from the stands that there were any differences in the way we covered the court, what we called or didn't call, etc...maybe there are some problems with the Fed side of things, but there sure weren't any "regional" differences there...

[kmref]

RR-that's the beauty of NCAA. Could you have done the same with the different Fed stuff? I think you hit the nail on the head. The only difference was the way they talked not the way they officiated. I think that's the way it needs to be. Congrats on going to the NCAA Tourney. Who played? What level? How far was the trip?

Very interested to hear stories of NCAA Tournament Stuff.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
Advantage/Disadvantage is in the rulebook based on contact, not violations. If I am wrong, show me the passage and I will concede that point all together. BTW, the term Advantage/Disadvantage is not even the terminology of the rulebook.

Wrong as usual Rut.
From the "Intent and Purpose" section of the NFHS Rules book: "A player or a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule." Since the 3-in-the-key rule was put in to prevent Lew Alcindor from posting up next to the basket and getting the ball for an easy slam dunk, the intent of that rule is pretty easy to figure for most officials.

Z

I guess that said all violations should be considered based on advantage/disadvantage principles? I guess that is under Rule 11? No Z, with every rule there is intent and a purpose, but advantage/disadvantage is only covered in the actual rules under Rule 4-27. You might want to believe that, but I do not see under the POEs this year, "only call traveling when there is an advantage gained." When I see that passage, I will believe you. Better yet, when they ask a question on your beloved test, I will really believe you. But they do not ask question on the test that come before or after Rule 1 and Rule 10. When they do, ask a test question about who the Publisher and Editor are, I will believe you.

Peace

[zebraman]

Rut,

You asked me to show you where it said that in the rulebook and you'd concede the point. I did. You said the terms advantage and disadvantage weren't in the rule book. I quoted word-for-word to show you that they are. Now you're off on some other tangent and saying that those words aren't in the actual rules of the rulebook. Pathetic actually.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
Rut,

You asked me to show you where it said that in the rulebook and you'd concede the point. I did. You said the terms advantage and disadvantage weren't in the rule book. I quoted word-for-word to show you that they are. Now you're off on some other tangent and saying that those words aren't in the actual rules of the rulebook. Pathetic actually.

Z

Z,

Anyone that disagrees with you, is pathetic in your eyes. I know of several officials, posters and coaches that would completely disagree with your statement as it relates to violations. I do not see any passage in Rule 9 stating about advantage/disadvantage. But as I said, when they ask a Part 1 question about this passage, I will change my mind.

Peace

[112448]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Z,

Anyone that disagrees with you, is pathetic in your eyes. I know of several officials, posters and coaches that would completely disagree with your statement as it relates to violations. I do not see any passage in Rule 9 stating about advantage/disadvantage. But as I said, when they ask a Part 1 question about this passage, I will change my mind.

Peace

Will you really change your mind when they ask a Part 1 question? or will you just come up with another excuse or another "made up" reason why the NFHS rules are incorrect and the RUT rules are right?

I think you've completely missed the point - rules differences DO NOT EXIST (for the most part), but there are substantial MECHANICS differences that exist.

I've called high school basketball in Maryland, Penn, and now Texas, and the only things I had to figure out were the MECHANICAL differences. All three states play by the same set of RULES for HS games.

Rockyroad - congrats on that assignment. that didn't happen to be the D-III women's nationals did it?

[rockyroad]

Yes it was...and no, he (Rut) won't...