Why??

[kmref]

Why do organizations differ from the NCAA. There is a multitude of associations that have different rule applications than those of the NCAA. Positions of timeouts, resumption of play after a "T", etc. I have been going to camp and some campers have been "hurt" by the fact that they do not know the NCAA stuff. Their chances of making the college conferences decrease greatly when their knowledge is limited. By reading all these different threads, there must a zillion rules books/manuels. Why is there so many differences? Perhaps there really isn't an answer.


"Inquiring Minds Want To Know"

[firedoc]

You are right...there is no answer!

[Rich]

As a high school official, I ask the question in the other direction:

Why do organizations like the NCAA differ from the NFHS?

I'm not asking this as a serious question -- rather, I'm asking why the NCAA should be held as "the standard?"

Rich

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by kmref
There is a multitude of associations that have different rule applications than those of the NCAA. Positions of timeouts, resumption of play after a "T", etc.

kmref, I guess I'm just curious what the "multitude" is. I'm only familiar with NCAA, Fed, NBA, and FIBA. Almost nobody in the US uses FIBA, and very few people who are trying out for a college conference use NBA rules. So what else are they being confused by? I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm just wondering what other rule sets you're thinking of.

By reading all these different threads, there must a zillion rules books/manuels.

I don't really think so. I would guess that upwards of 80-85% of the posts on this board relate to NFHS rules. Then there are the others I mentioned above. What makes for vigorous discussion is often what Jeff (Rutledge) calls regional differences. We joke Jeff about this, b/c he uses it as an excuse for times when he's misinterpreted a situation, but those regional differences really do exist to a certain extent. Although 98% of the HS rules are applied the same way throughout the US, many of the mechanics are modified by local or state associations; either explicitly or by unwritten "folklore".

Lastly, if anyone is trying out for a college conference and they don't know NCAA rules and mechanics, then they shouldn't be trying out. They're probably wasting their money. Spend the $20 and get the NCAA rulebook and 3-whistle mechanics manual before you go to camp.

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
[ Spend the $20 and get the NCAA rulebook and 3-whistle mechanics manual before you go to camp.

Come on Chuck...it can't be that simple, can it??

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by rockyroad
Come on Chuck...it can't be that simple, can it??

Actually, it's even simpler. I'm pretty sure that the rulebook is even online. Not sure about the mechanics manual, tho.

Chuck

[Jeff the Ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Actually, it's even simpler. I'm pretty sure that the rulebook is even online.
Chuck

Yup...try here!

http://www.ncaa.com/library/rules.html#basketball

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by ChuckElias


What makes for vigorous discussion is often what Jeff (Rutledge) calls regional differences. We joke Jeff about this, b/c he uses it as an excuse for times when he's misinterpreted a situation

I cannot speak for your area, but we have officials that do College, Men's and Women's. We have officials that do Pro-AM Leagues. We have officials that do Class A ball and Class AA (Big Schools) ball. And we have officials that work inside the city area and those that work outside of the city area. All these officials have different views on what are important, based on the levels that they do. The Chicago are along has probably 15 to 20 Official's Associations. I know that some South Suburban Associations to do not have the same focus on the rules as the City Associations. You would be surprise the different discussion officials have on rules that are very specific in the rulebook, based on their individual experiences. And if anyone thinks that the NF Rules are applied even 98% percent across the board, you are fooling yourself. First of all, states have their own rules and mechanics. Just my state alone has had specifically taught mechanics that were not in the NF Mechanics or Rulebooks. The NF is a guide, not the law for everyone. And just like in NCAA, depending on the conference, the assignor might want certain things done while doing their games. Why do you think the NF makes all these POEs and Rule revisions every year? It is not because there is complete understanding of the NF "Spirit of the Rules." If everything the NF was being applied they way they would like, they would just have a Rulebook and Mechanics Book and not add anything else.

I just this past weekend and a game with an Iowa team and an Illinois team. And before that game I had to explain somethings and the coaches did say to me in both the JV game and varsity game, "we do not do that in Iowa." Iowa uses NF Rules. So why do they not do that in Iowa? You think the officials or the state might have some different practices?

Peace

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Jeff, what were the things they don't do in Iowa that you had to discuss? I suppose you played by the home team rules and did not make up a hybrid set for this individual game?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Jeff, what were the things they don't do in Iowa that you had to discuss? I suppose you played by the home team rules and did not make up a hybrid set for this individual game?

Coaching box rule. Illinois uses the extended coaching box rule, Iowa does not.

Subbing a disqualified player. Illinois has to have a player subbed in immediately, not within 30 seconds. This is actually an experimental rule from the NF, that we have been using since last year.

Pregame situations Iowa does not allow a team to circle the court with the other team on the court. In Illinois this has always been acceptable and allowed as long as they do not abstruct their opponents from their warmup drills. Even this year that put in this "neutral zone" in many cases there are still things done that might violate that rule that the NF put into place. But in the eyes of some and what has not been made clear to all, sometimes the neutral zone is violated, but not because of taunting. But this one has sparked some debate.

Jump Ball Girls Basketball in Iowa does a coin flip in place of a Jump Ball. Of course in Illinois, we do not do this.

These are just some of the differences, the practices would make this list larger. But these are things that an Iowa school would have to deal with when playing in Illinois. I also know officials that work in Missouri, Indiana and Wisconsin. Everything that they do in those states to not always mirror IHSA Regulations or Rules according to the officials that work in those states. And all these states do use the NF Rulebook.

Peace

[Mark Dexter]

I'd hazard a guess that at least 50% of the rules are written exactly the same (perhaps different numbering), and 75-80% of the rules have basically the same intent/underlying philosophy (travelling, 3 seconds, backcourt, the like are the same under both rules).

Where the difference comes is mainly in administrative rules. POI for technicals in NCAA, division line, size of the court, to whom an indirect technical is assessed, where everyone can stand on FT's, number and length of timeouts, etc.

Granted, different places have different philosophies on what to call and when (defender drawing a PC under the basket comes to mind), but what the written rule is doesn't vary a whole lot. If you want to learn them - there's a handy table in the NF and NCAA book giving all the important differences. There are definately fewer differences in basketball than in football!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

kmref, I guess I'm just curious what the "multitude" is. I'm only familiar with NCAA, Fed, NBA, and FIBA. Almost nobody in the US uses FIBA, and very few people who are trying out for a college conference use NBA rules. So what else are they being confused by? I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm just wondering what other rule sets you're thinking of.

Chuck, Isn't CCA different? also I know that NCAA men's and women's are different, arent' they?
We don't discuss the WNBA here much, except during their season, but I think their set up is all different too. And we sometimes mention IAABO here, although I'm confused about how that works. Is it a different set of rules? or just a professional organization?

And of course, all the regional difference, and then we do discuss the various rec leagues differences.

Heck, now, I"M confused, too!

[ChuckElias]

Jeff, just so I'm clear, what exactly am I wrong about? You concur with almost everything I said in my post. I acknowledged the different rule-sets (NCAA, NF, NBA, FIBA), you mentioned college, high school, and Pro-Am leagues. So far, so good.

I mentioned that the regional difference are widespread as far as mechanics go. You said,

Originally posted by JRutledge
Just my state alone has had specifically taught mechanics that were not in the NF Mechanics or Rulebooks.

I think we still agree. I said that roughly 98% of the rules in the Fed rulebook are consistent across the country. You said

And if anyone thinks that the NF Rules are applied even 98% percent across the board, you are fooling yourself.

You then listed exactly four cases where the rules varied from your state. So basically, I overstated the percentage? I suppose that is certainly possible, and I apologize if I misled anyone , but I think my point is still valid. The vast majority of Fed rules are applied the same way across the country. The majority of "regional differences" are found in our mechanics.

Chuck

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Chuck, Isn't CCA different? also I know that NCAA men's and women's are different, arent' they?
We don't discuss the WNBA here much, except during their season, but I think their set up is all different too. And we sometimes mention IAABO here, although I'm confused about how that works. Is it a different set of rules? or just a professional organization?

You've got a point, Juulie. Some of the NCAA rules and interpretations differ for men and women. For the purposes of my post, I lumped men's and women's together in the NCAA and also in the NBA.

As far as IAABO, CBOA and CCA go, they are simply officials' organizations. They do not make or modify the rules. They simply provide services to officials. The "Fed" rules are written and published by the NFHS, which as far as I know is not affiliated with IAABO.

Chuck

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by kmref
Why do organizations differ from the NCAA. There is a multitude of associations that have different rule applications than those of the NCAA. Positions of timeouts, resumption of play after a "T", etc. I have been going to camp and some campers have been "hurt" by the fact that they do not know the NCAA stuff. Their chances of making the college conferences decrease greatly when their knowledge is limited. By reading all these different threads, there must a zillion rules books/manuels. Why is there so many differences? Perhaps there really isn't an answer.

Rule applications don't exist for the purpose of allowing officials to move up into the college ranks. Each organization is entitled to establish their own rules, mechanics, and interpretations.

I would ask the question, why would organizations do things like the NCAA does? How would it benefit them to do so? It might benefit an official in this situation, but once again, that's not the purpose of these organizations.