vet etiquette

[Nevadaref]

I worked with a 20 year vet last weekend in a 2-man game. This guy is very fussy about not calling his area. While I was lead White takes a shot that rebounds high off the rim and over the backboard without touching it. It cleared the board on my side, but probably only passed over the last eight inches or so. The ball came down to the side of the board, but between it and the endline where White obtained the rebound.
My partner did not blow the whistle. My question for all is would you?

[Barry C. Morris]

No way, regardless of the experience of my partner. As lead, I shouldn't even have seen what was happening up there. It's your partner's call. Let him deal with the implications. If it was as close to the side of the board as you stated, I doubt that there was much fuss from anyone.

[williebfree]

If you stick "by the book" it is not your call. It is the trail's area. I guess I would keep my focus on the players below the rim and their positioning for the "alleged" rebound.

[Rich]

....some of the people I've worked with.

They judge success based on the number of double-whistles they have on the floor.

There are a lot of times when players are near the line dividing the court responsibilities and when both officials see a foul. What is wrong with both whistles as long as the right official (pregamed usually as the official in the direction the players are heading) takes the foul to the table as the other official drops his fist?

Another instance where I see double whistles is when a player drives the lane. While this is the lead's primary area, the trail may have a better angle on contact out front -- especially if the drive starts from the trail's side of the court. Since most of the off-ball activity is going to be in that area anyway, the trail's eyes are there.

Are we just supposed to ignore legitimate fouls based on lines drawn on the court?

I stress being a good off-ball official during my pregames, especially working with a new partner, but there are simply times where we need to work as a team and help each other out. If I miss something blatant, I'm not going to get upset when my partner bails me out. I may even thank him.

The only time I get angry is when I make a conscious advantage/disadvantage decision to not call a foul (for example -- a bump in the back on a rebound where the player in position clears the rebound) and my partner makes a long distance call. That happened last week when the two players were about eight feet from me and my partner was at least 40 feet away. The discussion at halftime was cordial, and I made it clear that I wasn't upset that he called a foul (new guys seem hesitant to blow the whistle, so I don't want a partner to be afraid to call fouls), but rather to consider the advantage/disadvantage and to hold his whistle for a bit. OK, so I did mention that I was right there, but I'm only human....

Rich

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Dec 18th, 2002 at 08:30 AM]

[williebfree]

Rich...

I agree, get the call right. A good pregame is essential, but as NEVADA stated this 20 yr vet did NOT appear to have that as a "primary" (pun intended) concern.

[Edited by williebfree on Dec 18th, 2002 at 09:10 AM]

[massref]

Nevadaref:
During the pre game I always discuss calling in your primary zone. However we want to always get the call right. I always tell my partner that if you see an elephant in my area call it otherwise must we trust each other that if I pass on a call in my primary I made that decision based on being where I need to be. It's OK to be fussy about this issue but I believe all great officials leave their ego in the locker room.
Rich F:
All great points!
Members:
In your pregame do you discuss how to handle the pass/crash coverage situations. I be interested in opinions on this.

[Nevadaref]

One would think that we are there to get the call correct for the benefit of the kids who are playing. I agree with Rich and would hope that the response would be:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
If I miss something blatant, I'm not going to get upset when my partner bails me out. I may even thank him.

But having worked with this official before, I knew his response would be:

Originally posted by Barry C. Morris
As lead, I shouldn't even have seen what was happening up there.

But since the ball took forever to come down, I began wondering where it was and glanced up. So I did see it.
However, since I had a long ride home with this guy and didn't want to deal with this discussion, I just let them play on and he kept his 20-year vet, I'm-a-great-ref (even though I missed the ball going over the board) ego intact.

Lastly, let me add that this happened in the third quarter of a game with Red leading by 8. If it had happened with 30 seconds left in a very close ballgame, I'm calling this from the lead and he can deal with it.

[fletch_irwin_m]

-pregamed usually as the official in the direction the players are heading-

Our association teaches the opposite. We call primary as where the players came FROM, not heading. I had a partner two nites ago who was from another state and he asked if we called from where the player came from or from where he is going. The three camps I went to this summer said that the official where the play originated was the primary, if the play went into another coverage area, that official needed to wait a tick to see if the "primary" was going to call anything, then hit their whistle.

[Nevadaref]

The theory here is that the official whose primary the ball is coming from will see the whole play and not just the tail end. Therefore, this official would have more information upon which to base a call.

[Barry C. Morris]

Don't get me wrong, ladies and gentleman. I'm not a "you'd better not call in my area" ref. In this specific situation, however, there is no way lead should take this call. If lead is looking at a ball 14 feet in the air and trail is looking at a ball 14 feet in the air, who's looking at the 10 players vying for a rebound. I'd be a lot more concerned about missing a possible violent foul on the rebound than an out of bounds violation.

From the way the play was described, this wasn't an "Oh, My God. How did they miss that" play.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by massref
In your pregame do you discuss how to handle the pass/crash coverage situations. I be interested in opinions on this.

Lead stays with pass, Trail takes the crash.

Chuck

[Rich]

That probably is the current mechanic. I know it is the three man mechanic, where areas can overlap.

It makes sense, too. That way the trail can "release" the player once it makes sense for the lead to call the foul.

It's been years since I've been to a camp, so any recent teachings are appreciated by this newly-returned-to-the-game-"vet".

But again, why do some officials make the "double whistle" the unpardonable sin of officiating basketball as long as only one official actually "calls" the foul? It seems that this attitude, while emphasizing off-ball coverage, drives a stake through the "team" aspect we all strive for.

Just trying to understand,

Rich

[Rich]

I agree with Barry regarding this specific play. I generalized -- perhaps too quickly.

I don't know why officials look up at a shot when working lead. It's far more entertaining watching the players trying to get rebounding position. And occasionally you catch something important, too.

Rich

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Chuck,

The members of my association tend to work the pass/crash mechanic opposite of what you have said - "If you've got the a$$, you've got the pass." This generally leaves the Lead to make the crash call - we justify this principle by saying that the Lead has a better view of whether the defender is properly set or moving laterally into the path of the passer.

Will you explain your reasoning for

Lead stays with pass, Trail takes the crash.

It makes some good sense in that the pass is generally deeper into the Lead's primary area. Please expand.

In all honesty I don't know that we are regimented enough to really stick with the stated mechanic - it does however have a nice rhyming pattern that we enjoy saying.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Will you explain your reasoning for

I don't know if I have the "official" explanation, but I'll give you why I think it's a good mechanic. Two reasons:

1)These awkward pass/crash situations usually happen in transition. Especially in transition, the Trail official is more likely to be watching the ballhandler and primary defender. The Lead is probably farther from the spot of the impending crash, and is hopefully watching play away from the ball. So to expect the Lead official to officiate off-the-ball and then have a call on a crash that's not in his primary is going to yield a guess at best. Since the Trail is already officiating the two players involved, let the Trail call the crash.

2) If the the Lead is watching the crash, that leaves the Trail to make a call under the basket on a quick catch-and-drive. So what you end up with is the Lead looking out at the 3-point line and the Trail looking down on the block. Why do that?

In cases where the pass/crash is not in transition, then I would just officiate it according to normal areas of responsibility. In other words, if the pass/crash happens right in front of the Lead in a set offense, then the Lead will make a call (or not) on the crash, since it's his/her area. The Trail, then, would be forced to follow the pass.

Hope that makes some sense.

Chuck