vet etiquette

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Barry C. Morris
Don't get me wrong, ladies and gentleman. I'm not a "you'd better not call in my area" ref. In this specific situation, however, there is no way lead should take this call. If lead is looking at a ball 14 feet in the air and trail is looking at a ball 14 feet in the air, who's looking at the 10 players vying for a rebound. I'd be a lot more concerned about missing a possible violent foul on the rebound than an out of bounds violation.

From the way the play was described, this wasn't an "Oh, My God. How did they miss that" play.

I agree. It's not the lead's call because you have no business looking there anyway. That's why you don't make it. If you're lead and there's a BC violation that your partner doesn' call, are you going to call that too?

Originally posted by NevadaRef
If it had happened with 30 seconds left in a very close ballgame, I'm calling this from the lead and he can deal with it.

Bad idea.

[massref]

IMHO-
I think I agree with ChuckE but you have got to pregame it either way you decide to handle it so it doesn't blow up in your face with a rotten no call or a block charge double whistle.
The trail should take the crash because his body momentum is going to the hoop and should be reffing the trail aggressively on this play.
The lead's tendency is to follow the ball on the pass anyway so stay with it!
And when the double whistle does come (assume it will in this situation) resist the urge to give the quick block or charge signal as your partner may have the opposite call. Just get the fist up, hesitate, glance at your partner, make sure you know who's gonna take this call (which you talked about before you came out)and then SELL IT!

[Kelvin green]

I am going back to something Rich mentioned

Another instance where I see double whistles is when a player drives the lane. While this is the lead's primary area, the trail may have a better angle on contact out front -- especially if the drive starts from the trail's side of the court. Since most of the off-ball activity is going to be in that area anyway, the trail's eyes are there.

I do not think this is leads primary here.

If the drive starts in trail's primary, there is no way lead knows what happens. This is especially true if the lead is working off ball right, lead may only pick up part of the play.... This is trail's call first. Then leads. If it starts below FT line then there could be a double whistle but if is starts wide or high it's trail's call.

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
[BIf the drive starts in trail's primary, there is no way lead knows what happens. This is especially true if the lead is working off ball right, lead may only pick up part of the play.... This is trail's call first. Then leads. If it starts below FT line then there could be a double whistle but if is starts wide or high it's trail's call.
[/B]

Absolutely correct Kelvin...if it starts in my primary, I am taking it all the way to the hoop...if my partner wants to blow the whistle on it too, that's fine, but I am taking it to the table...I have no problem with most double whistles, but let the correct official actually report it...and as for the original situation - Lead better not make that call since he/she shouldn't be looking up there, and if you won't make the call in the first quarter - why would you make it in the last 30 seconds???????

[JRutledge]

All this comes down to is what you talked about in a pregame. If you talk about these things in your pregame, you will know what your partner thinks before you make the call. That is why you have to talk philosophy within the "this is where you stand, this is where I stand" conversations. Veteran or rookie, you need to discuss the things that have them call their game. At least so if you know going in that you might have different philosophies, you can at least try to call similar things or you know who has what call. The mechanics book is just a guideline, the reality is what you discuss in the pregame.

Peace

[AK ref SE]

Rut-
I like what you said about reality is what you discuss in pregame. It helps us get on the same page or hopefully close to the same page. Whether we have worked with this partner once or hundreds of time. We may need to focus on what we have called right or polish up on the areas that we may not be doing right.

AK ref SE

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
I agree. It's not the lead's call because you have no business looking there anyway. That's why you don't make it. If you're lead and there's a BC violation that your partner doesn't call, are you going to call that too?

If the offensive player who throws or last touches the ball before it goes into the backcourt is in the lead's primary area (say on the lead's side down in the corner of the endline and sideline, diagonally opposite from the trail) where the trail "has no business looking" how is the trail going to call a backcourt violation if the offensive team is the first to touch in the backcourt? The answer is that he was looking in the lead's area! So it goes both ways.
Now if the trail is my partner and doesn't make this call because he does not know where the ball came from or is unsure who touched it last, you bet I am going to come out and make this call. Of course, we should come together and discuss it, but I am not going to just let it go simply because the officials manual says backcourt should be called by the trail.

Originally posted by NevadaRef
If it had happened with 30 seconds left in a very close ballgame, I'm calling this from the lead and he can deal with it.

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Bad idea.

I believe that it is even worse if I don't make the call in this situation and it determines the outcome of the game.

Originally posted by Rockyroad
Lead better not make that call since he/she shouldn't be looking up there, and if you won't make the call in the first quarter - why would you make it in the last 30 seconds???????

With the comment about this happening in last 30 seconds, I was trying to draw a distinction between what I felt was a relatively minor oversight on the part of the trail official and what could be a gamebreaker if the trail misses it?

I don't think that we should screw some team just because of the proper mechanic. Many of the responses have said to get the call right.

Now I don't make a habit of watching my partner's area, nor do I take his check after the game. But I happened to see this one.
I really believe that these kids and coaches have worked too hard and dedicated too much of their time, for me to not step up and make the right call in a gamebreaker situation, even if I have to step on someones toes.
I would not sleep well if I had knowledge of the play and did nothing.


The main reason that I posted this thread was to get some feedback about this vets overbearing attitude, and my response to it, which in this case caused me to ignore this violation.
Maybe next time he could miss something a lot more major, like a punch, in his area. For the betterment of those whom he officiates and officiates with, should someone tell him that he is out-of-line with his demand not to call his area?
Or should I just demand that he doesn't miss anything there!

[Edited by Nevadaref on Dec 20th, 2002 at 05:46 AM]

[massref]

Most of the great vets that I've had the pleasure of working with EXPECT me to help the team (us) get the call right! We discuss this in the all important pre-game. We know not to call out of primary most of the time. It's our goal to never call out of our primary but as they say "in the fog of war" I want to have a partner that's gonna bail out my a$$ if I'm sceened out in my primary. If it means making the game better by all means make the call.
You know where you stand with a vet in the pre-game by the attetion level shown by your him. If he is an arrogant SOB and tells you "Hey, we got two teams and a ball, let's go!" be afraid, be very afraid.

[williebfree]

Originally posted by massref
If he is an arrogant SOB and tells you "Hey, we got two teams and a ball, let's go!" be afraid, be very afraid.

Amen to that!!

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
[BWith the comment about this happening in last 30 seconds, I was trying to draw a distinction between what I felt was a relatively minor oversight on the part of the trail official and what could be a gamebreaker if the trail misses it?
The main reason that I posted this thread was to get some feedback about this vets overbearing attitude, and my response to it, which in this case caused me to ignore this violation.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Dec 20th, 2002 at 05:46 AM] [/B]

OK...two things: 1)Don't assume that making/not making a call in the first quarter is not a "game-breaking" situation...things that happen early in the game can have a definite impact on what comes later...so if you wouldn't make a call in the first quarter - don't make it in the fourth...if it's something that needs to be called late in the game, call it when it happens early in the game also...

2)When working with this type of official, you can do two things...you can pull your head in and not call anything in "his" area in order to not cause any waves...or you can have the attitude that "this is MY game" and call what you sincerely feel needs to be called and deal with the fall-out after the game...personally, I follow choice two and have had some problems afterward, but always been able to work them out...my philosophy is to protect the integrity of the game first, and integrity of the partners after that...