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I Agree with Juulie

This is a new option that allows us to "bring to the attention" of players, coaches, and fans alike the illegality of thrusting elbows to create space.

If the player's elbow had made contact with another player's face (her own teammates included) it would have been U-G-L-Y (serious injury possible)! I was flabergasted at the coach's ignorance about protecting the safety of his players, as well as the opponents.

I have called three (2 MS Girls & 1 JV boys) elbow violations which were in my mind "textbook cases" and have passed on several that could have been interpretted as marginal calls.

Bottom line: I like the option.

Re: Coach wanted more than a word, methinks

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

I don't care much for coaches taking advantage of green officials, so since I was between the huddles after administering the timeout I quickly got the coach's attention and got him back in his huddle. I must admit I read him the riot act about coming on the floor and using timeouts to berate officials instead of using them for the purpose they were designed -- to coach his kids.

He got on my partner some after that, but I clearly scared him out of saying anything to me. Good thing or bad thing, I'm not sure. I just wish my partner would've raised his hands once the entire night -- foul or violation he only blew his whistle. I mentioned this at halftime, but I just don't think it registered. Thank goodness I'm not new anymore.

In a higher level game, there would've been a technical foul. I will simply assume that the coach just didn't know any better this time. Maybe there should've been a technical this time, too, but I just didn't think it would help.

Back to varsity next. Won't have to worry about such things, I hope.

Rich

Sometimes, I believe that we need to take care of this business at the MS level. These coaches get away with stuff here, because we let them on the pretense that they are either learning, new or some other. The problem becomes, that they then believe this is the way to coach as they move up the line.

If we are consistent in dealing with coaches at these levels, we MIGHT make it easier on ourselves later in life.

Just a thought.

http://www.sodamnfunny.com/Animation/Gif/monkey7.gif

Re: Re: Coach wanted more than a word, methinks

Quote:

Originally posted by ScottParks
Sometimes, I believe that we need to take care of this business at the MS level. These coaches get away with stuff here, because we let them on the pretense that they are either learning, new or some other. The problem becomes, that they then believe this is the way to coach as they move up the line.

I agree, but prefer to mention it quietly the first few times at the MS level. Although, I have had this backfire on me. Overall, however, MS coaches are well-intended but mis-informed, and appreciate being warned.

Re: I Agree with Juulie

Quote:

Originally posted by williebfree
I have called three (2 MS Girls & 1 JV boys) elbow violations which were in my mind "textbook cases" and have passed on several that could have been interpretted as marginal calls.

Bottom line: I like the option.

willie, could you elaborate on these cases a little? I haven't called an elbow violation yet, and have seen only one called. As a new official, I'm looking for a little guidance in this area. Further, I'm doing mostly MS games, and it seems the consensus of this forum is that the MS level is a good place to "train" players and coaches on this rule.

The interpretation we received this season is that there should be a change in direction of the elbow.

If a player clears a rebound and turns with the ball leading with the elbow, AND THEN swings back with the other elbow, then it is a violation. YMMV.

Of course, contact results in a player control foul (if the player has the ball) or a common foul (without the ball) that could be ruled flagrant, depending on the severity.

Rich

A player may make themself "wide" (lift elbows) after making a rebound. It becomes a violation if they start to rotate at the torso and try to create space or intimidate the defender. If you believe they had intent to hurt a defender, due to "aiming" the elbows you can escalate the call to an appropriate level, to include "flagarant" foul

Does that help?

These replies are helpful, and thanks.

Quote:

Originally posted by williebfree
A player may make themself "wide" (lift elbows) after making a rebound. It becomes a violation if they start to rotate at the torso

That's in direct conflict with the written rule (something like "arm speed in excess of the torso")

Bob, Rich, and Willie, sounds like you all are making the same argument. As I have learned the Rule-of-Thumb: call the violation when the arms/elbow are moving faster than the torso or hips. Arms and body moving together is okay. Arms/Elbows moving separate from the body (twisting) should likely be a punishable violation.

And as you have all pointed out, violent contact in either case must be punished with a foul.

Re: Is elbowing a problem?

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
You are the first person I've heard that's called the violation.

I'm interested in seeing if this really happens as much as the FED thinks.

Rich

I called it last week in one of my varsity tournament games. Didn't catch a word of flak about it. That isn't the first time I called it either. I like it. I think the federation was correct in assuming that the reason we didn't call the elbowing before was due to the large penalty for the "clear out" by either the post or the trapped guard. The violation is a happy halfway point to get something called, without going to free throws, and added personal foul, and an added team foul. BOOM! call the elbowing violation and go on....

[Edited by Jeremy Hohn on Dec 18th, 2002 at 10:24 AM]

I'll pass a long somthing our local supervisor told us. He told us that if the coach wants a word tell him that if it is more than two words you are going to ask for the other coach to join us. That way the other coach doesn't fell "Cheated" when it seems to him the calls start going the other way. Also it usually deters any talk between the coach and official