Went to the reporting area to report a foul on A1 prior to 2 free throws. A's coach waves me over because he has a question. He asks me to please say something to B2 because he smacked the ball OOB a couple times after B made a basket causing a slight delay in A's ability to get the ball in play. I honestly didnt remember seeing B2 do that but responded: "if I see that, I will take care of it". While I was talking to A's HC, B's fans and I think coaches start yelling that A has to take a time out ot talk to me. What I think they were getting at was maybe A's coach was using this to "ice" the shooter. My conversaion with A's coach was 20 - 30 seconds at best.

If a coach waves you over while you are reporting, do you generally go over and hear him out? I tend to think this is an either way situation. If you go, A is happy and B is unhappy. If you dont, visa-versa. I'm inclined to respect both coaches so I will give them a couple seconds but I would appreciate some feedback from some of the "Old Guys" .

Larks
VIT

I'll go over, but 20-30 seconds is 15-20 seconds too long.

Larks,
I am naive enough to have gone over to the coach and had a quick word, but I can understand Team B's thought process.
As a free throw shooter, I would welcome the chance to catch a blow.
mick

If you switch to trail, there's no reason why you can't have a brief, quiet discussion during the 1st FT while your partner puts the ball into play.

One of the advantages of 3-man mechanics - the trail can always sneak out of the play a bit and talk to the coaches.

If you can have a BRIEF word without delaying the game or calling attention to yourself-DO IT. Giving the impression that you are interested in the coach's opinion will help with game management. Remember though if you do it for one coach, do it for the other.

I have talked to the coaches if I can read the situation and it is not confrontational. If it is to discuss a judgement call, I am not going to hold up the game to do that, I will go in the other direction.

Peace

I always start listening to what the coach has to say.If it's a legitimate question,I'll answer him if I can do it in 10 words or less.If it requires more explaining than that,I'll ask him to see me during a TO,half,after the game,etc-when I can explain more fully. If the coach just wants to b*tch or vent,then it's "turn your back and walk away time".

"Old guys"? We prefer seasoned,veteran,youth-challenged,etc.,if you don't mind.

Yup. Just being there can diffuse some situations before they become an issue.

Similiar sit last week.

My 23 year vet mentor had a good plan.

Keep conversation short but position yourself where you are facing the OTHER Coach so they can see and hear the short conversation.

Usually help and makes both feel a part and not slighted.

Hey! You stole what I was gonna say, you seasoned, veteran, youth-challenged SOB! :D

Interesting.
Thanks.

Coach wanted more than a word, methinks
 

Being new in my state, I have an interesting schedule.

I worked varsity Friday and Saturday and middle school last night. Two middle school games with 6-minute quarters pays 5 dollars more than a varsity game, BTW.

A coach called a 30-second timeout and then started walking towards my rookie partner on the other side of the court to yell at him for not calling fouls. (Well, my partner could've left his whistle at home, but that's another story).

I don't care much for coaches taking advantage of green officials, so since I was between the huddles after administering the timeout I quickly got the coach's attention and got him back in his huddle. I must admit I read him the riot act about coming on the floor and using timeouts to berate officials instead of using them for the purpose they were designed -- to coach his kids.

He got on my partner some after that, but I clearly scared him out of saying anything to me. Good thing or bad thing, I'm not sure. I just wish my partner would've raised his hands once the entire night -- foul or violation he only blew his whistle. I mentioned this at halftime, but I just don't think it registered. Thank goodness I'm not new anymore.

In a higher level game, there would've been a technical foul. I will simply assume that the coach just didn't know any better this time. Maybe there should've been a technical this time, too, but I just didn't think it would help.

Back to varsity next. Won't have to worry about such things, I hope.

Rich

Rich
 

Welcome to WI!

I also have experienced "coaches" in MS level that are parents who volunteered and have not taken (been afforded) the opportunity to obtain or read a rulebook (current or past).

Just last night, in 7th Grade game, I called an elbow violation. It was a textbook situation for the call and the coach's reaction almost earned him a "T", "How can you make that call!" Had this game been HS level, he would have had it. My partner, who is also a Varsity official, gave the coach an impromptu lesson on the new POA.

My point is... I did not want to penalize the players for the coach's ignorance, especially knowing how difficult it is to get volunteers to work with the kids. (However, the "quality" of this volunteer was questionable on several occassions.)

Is elbowing a problem?
 

You are the first person I've heard that's called the violation.

I'm interested in seeing if this really happens as much as the FED thinks.

Rich

Re: Is elbowing a problem?
 

I've called it a couple of times so far. I like it a lot better. As I have sized up my own thought process, I see that I really had been no-calling it because it seemed so extreme. Now it's a lot easier.

The only problem I see is that since no one was calling it before, it looks like we're clamping down, not letting up. It's getting called more, so more players and coaches are coming face to face with the illegality of the move. They didn't used to even know it was illegal. But this seems like a small price to pay to get control.

I Agree with Juulie
 

This is a new option that allows us to "bring to the attention" of players, coaches, and fans alike the illegality of thrusting elbows to create space.

If the player's elbow had made contact with another player's face (her own teammates included) it would have been U-G-L-Y (serious injury possible)! I was flabergasted at the coach's ignorance about protecting the safety of his players, as well as the opponents.

I have called three (2 MS Girls & 1 JV boys) elbow violations which were in my mind "textbook cases" and have passed on several that could have been interpretted as marginal calls.

Bottom line: I like the option.

Re: Coach wanted more than a word, methinks
 

Sometimes, I believe that we need to take care of this business at the MS level. These coaches get away with stuff here, because we let them on the pretense that they are either learning, new or some other. The problem becomes, that they then believe this is the way to coach as they move up the line.

If we are consistent in dealing with coaches at these levels, we MIGHT make it easier on ourselves later in life.

Just a thought.

http://www.sodamnfunny.com/Animation/Gif/monkey7.gif

Re: Re: Coach wanted more than a word, methinks
 

I agree, but prefer to mention it quietly the first few times at the MS level. Although, I have had this backfire on me. Overall, however, MS coaches are well-intended but mis-informed, and appreciate being warned.

Re: I Agree with Juulie
 

willie, could you elaborate on these cases a little? I haven't called an elbow violation yet, and have seen only one called. As a new official, I'm looking for a little guidance in this area. Further, I'm doing mostly MS games, and it seems the consensus of this forum is that the MS level is a good place to "train" players and coaches on this rule.

The interpretation we received this season is that there should be a change in direction of the elbow.

If a player clears a rebound and turns with the ball leading with the elbow, AND THEN swings back with the other elbow, then it is a violation. YMMV.

Of course, contact results in a player control foul (if the player has the ball) or a common foul (without the ball) that could be ruled flagrant, depending on the severity.

Rich

Klancie
 

A player may make themself "wide" (lift elbows) after making a rebound. It becomes a violation if they start to rotate at the torso and try to create space or intimidate the defender. If you believe they had intent to hurt a defender, due to "aiming" the elbows you can escalate the call to an appropriate level, to include "flagarant" foul

Does that help?

These replies are helpful, and thanks.

Re: Klancie
 

That's in direct conflict with the written rule (something like "arm speed in excess of the torso")

Same same
 

Bob, Rich, and Willie, sounds like you all are making the same argument. As I have learned the Rule-of-Thumb: call the violation when the arms/elbow are moving faster than the torso or hips. Arms and body moving together is okay. Arms/Elbows moving separate from the body (twisting) should likely be a punishable violation.

And as you have all pointed out, violent contact in either case must be punished with a foul.

Re: Is elbowing a problem?
 

I called it last week in one of my varsity tournament games. Didn't catch a word of flak about it. That isn't the first time I called it either. I like it. I think the federation was correct in assuming that the reason we didn't call the elbowing before was due to the large penalty for the "clear out" by either the post or the trapped guard. The violation is a happy halfway point to get something called, without going to free throws, and added personal foul, and an added team foul. BOOM! call the elbowing violation and go on....

[Edited by Jeremy Hohn on Dec 18th, 2002 at 10:24 AM]

Wanting a word
 

I'll pass a long somthing our local supervisor told us. He told us that if the coach wants a word tell him that if it is more than two words you are going to ask for the other coach to join us. That way the other coach doesn't fell "Cheated" when it seems to him the calls start going the other way. Also it usually deters any talk between the coach and official